1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG

[tedzan]

Again, I agree with you guys regarding "cut-outs" from (19th Century) A-type albums, or posters. I acquired this card which had
already been graded by SGC.

Perhaps, SGC should have qualified it, or perhaps SGC was not sure what it was ? ?

Anyhow, I'll leave it to Mark for further discussion on this subject.


Hey guys, as most of you know, I do not care for graded cards. To me, it's a nice looking "type card" (excuse the pun). Therefore,
I may just free it from its "plastic prison" and let it "breath".

Like most of the cards in my collection



T-Rex TED
.

[Econteachert205]

My two cents is that the manufacturers intent matters, i.e. if the "cards" in question were made on a poster sheet with the design to be cut out or not. It appears from what I've read here that the intent was not to cut them out as stand alone items, meaning to me they are not cards. As for supply and demand, I always try to distinguish degrees of needs vs. wants. It's all wants for me except t205's which of course are serious business

[tedzan]

......back in the early 1990's, I picked up a lot of 26 Allen & Ginter "cards" which included the 10 BB players (Anson, Comiskey, Keefe, Kelly, etc.)
in the N28 set. It was immediately obvious that these pieces were not the original N28 cards. But, were most likely cut out of the Allen & Ginter
album. They sold very quickly, since I priced them reasonably. You could say they were the "poor man's" version of the originals. Shown here is
an additional one of these of Monte Ward.





Similarly, such "cards" have been cut out of the GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (A36) album**. Collectors are willing to acquire these more affordable
pieces, since the actual cards have become very expensive. Furthermore, they are Circa 1888.





In either event, grading company's (GC) will probably grade them. For example, this practice is no different than GC grading and labeling "cards"
that appear to look like the original 1947 BOND BREAD issue....however, these "cards" were issued several years later.


Note **....I really cannot imagine anyone destroying these beautiful 19th Century albums by cutting out the BB images from them.
But, it has occurred.


TED Z
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
.

[steve B]

The first "cards" from the 1800's I ever bought was a near set of racehorses - all apparently cut from a banner or album (I forget which, and don't recall if there was an album. )

While I know now that they're not exactly cards I still like them. It's sad that some one cut up a banner or album, but I'm fairly sure it was done a lot closer to when they were issued than when I bought them. Especially since at the time even a sort of beat banner would have been worth way more than the cutouts -I think I paid around $2-3 for the whole batch and the same for a smaller batch of actual cards from a different set of horses.

To me it's always slightly puzzling that the cutouts are less common than the cards, but worth far less. It makes sense going on desirability, but not on ---I need a better word than rarity, but can't think of it just now.

I'm also ok with the cutouts being slabbed, as long as the ID is correct. For my horse cards I'd think "poster cutout" slabbed as "A" would be appropriate if I ever wanted to bother. No point just now, as the slabbing would probably add less value than it would cost.

Steve B

[dstudeba]

So much discussion on a series I collect is great! Sorry I missed this earlier. One of the long discussed problems with grading is that they can make mistakes or judgements that hurt hobbyists who might not be familiar with the issue. That is what the original thread with Ted was about. Ted bought the card pictured without knowing it was different than a usual N321 pack issued card. It is a great vintage piece which he might have bought anyway but he didn't have all the information when he purchased it mainly because SGC slabbed it incorrectly.

As previously mentioned these were brought to the hobby by Terry Knouse years ago and many can be seen on David Rudd's page here.

I wanted to respond specifically to packs regarding his post here:

I think a real problem in the hobby is taking collector words for things. ...

Similar situation seems to have happened here. Original poster said they laid out information they had misinterpreted to a TPG. TPG took the collector's word for it because they are well respected. But in the end nothing was done to confirm anything.

Not condemning SGC or any other TPG. I think the real problem lies in the hobby. Not saying this applies to this scenario, but when people have vested interests in something being designated in such a way, their information is coming from a difference place. You want your card to be a new type / scrap / variation / etc because there's a monetary interest there. TPG's will do their best because they're human and rely on collector knowledge and experience when presented with something new. Not sure what the solution is.

My emphasis was added to the above quote because I applaud you for the disclaimer. In this case this was just about getting things right and hopefully stopping the mistakes that SGC was making with regards to this issue. As discussed in the current market Ted is taking a financial hit by reslabbing this issue. But he wants it right.

As for taking a hobbyists word for something, the TPGs would do well to take Mark Macrae's word for anything. I am sure there is something in cards he doesn't know, but if he doesn't know it you can bet that the TPGs don't know it.

For other hobbyists, myself included, I definitely can see your point about getting other points of view, but not with Mark Macrae.

[packs]

There are always going to be people who know more about something than others. But I don't think anyone is above confirmation of facts. I agree completely with Old Judge on the point that TPGs should only work with verifiable information. Even if a collector feels strongly about an issue, it should be confirmed first by a third party because that is the purpose of third party authentication.

[tedzan]

..


Hey guys,

Mr. J. Smith is now free to breathe again....and, perhaps this card will survive another 126 years.
It now resides in a high quality mylar plastic....as, do many of the cards in my collection. I have a
disdain for the TPGraded practice, as it invariably distracts from the original intent of collecting BB
cards.

So perhaps many of you who participated in this thread are happy now . Just as I certainly am.


T-Rex TED
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

......Ted bought the card pictured without knowing it was different than a usual N321 pack issued card. It is a great vintage piece which he might have bought anyway but he didn't have all the information when he purchased it mainly because SGC slabbed it incorrectly.

As previously mentioned these were brought to the hobby by Terry Knouse years ago and many can be seen on David Rudd's page here.


As for taking a hobbyists word for something, the TPGs would do well to take Mark Macrae's word for anything. I am sure there is something in cards he doesn't know, but if he doesn't know it you can bet that the TPGs don't know it.

For other hobbyists, myself included, I definitely can see your point about getting other points of view, but not with Mark Macrae.

It was great meeting and chatting with you at the National.

Your 1st statement here is quite true......I would have bought it anyway. And, it was acquired at a reasonable price, too.
This N321 "card" fits quite well into my 19th Century type card collection.


Regarding your 2nd statement here....according to David Rudd's site, these "cards" may be unique in the hobby....do you
agree with this ?


Finally, I certainly agree with you that Mark Macrae's knowledge of things in this hobby is vast and virtually impeccable.





TED Z
.

[dstudeba]

Hi Ted,

Excellent meeting and chatting with you also. I have not seen a duplicate N321 paper version to refute David's statement that they could be unique. However as you know they don't come up very often so it is tough to determine. I don't believe there were any duplicates in Terry Knouse's find of 30 or so.