1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG

[tedzan]

OK guys......after several iterations, SGC got it correct on my S. F. Hess J. Smith card............



1st label








2nd label Proof (incorrect)






Final label Type 2 (correct)






TED Z
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Still looking for this T206 guy to complete my EXCLUSIVE 12 red HINDU sub-set (12 subjects)

SHECKARD (glove)
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[oldjudge]

If type 2 means trimmed off a poster they got it right. I don't believe that these should be slabbed at all, not with an A and certainly not with a numerical grade. Are there any other items trimmed off a poster that get slabbed?

[packs]

Old Judge mini's if I'm not mistaken were trimmed from posters.

I've seen a lot of Buchner's trimmed from posters that have been slabbed.

Have also seen some Cracker Jacks that were trimmed from a poster slabbed.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If type 2 means trimmed off a poster they got it right. I don't believe that these should be slabbed at all, not with an A and certainly not with a numerical grade. Are there any other items trimmed off a poster that get slabbed?

Jay

While I may agree with you, I've seen N28's slabbed that were cut from posters (or the Allen & Ginter album).


TED Z
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[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If type 2 means trimmed off a poster they got it right. I don't believe that these should be slabbed at all, not with an A and certainly not with a numerical grade. Are there any other items trimmed off a poster that get slabbed?

I'm with Jay on this one, if it's trimmed from a poster it's a clipping. Not much different than the newspaper clippings that are sold and sometimes slabbed.

To say "Type 2" somehow implies that this is a separate issue of cards independently distributed alongside or in tandem with the normal N321’s. That isn’t the case unless I’m missing something.

Perhaps the grading folks have slabbed N28’s from the G20 banner or the booklet which would be silly. If so are they labeled N28 “Type 2” or just “blank back” or something? Also I would love to see an example of a slabbed N28 from a G20 banner how anyone could slab that would be comical love to know which company or companies did that.

Just my two cents.

[oldjudge]

Good observation on the minis, but there are two differences. First, minis were also issued as normal cards with no difference from the trimmed ones. Second, the poster that you refer to is an uncut regular sheet glued to a cardboard sign. It is identical to the issued card. This "Type 2" is of a different design. I completely agree with John, that label is very misleading.

[1880nonsports]

when an album cut or poster cut is graded by TPG's and then on top of that it isn't labled correctly. An owner may think of it as a card but it doesn't fit the definition of a tobacco INSERT card - the basis of the catalog designations.

[packs]

I think a real problem in the hobby is taking collector words for things. I see people post cards all the time and call it a scrap. But how do you really know that the card wasn't intended to be distributed? You don't. But because someone who has been collecting for a long time designated it as such, the TPG's and hobby will consider it as such.

Similar situation seems to have happened here. Original poster said they laid out information they had misinterpreted to a TPG. TPG took the collector's word for it because they are well respected. But in the end nothing was done to confirm anything.

Not condemning SGC or any other TPG. I think the real problem lies in the hobby. Not saying this applies to this scenario, but when people have vested interests in something being designated in such a way, their information is coming from a difference place. You want your card to be a new type / scrap / variation / etc because there's a monetary interest there. TPG's will do their best because they're human and rely on collector knowledge and experience when presented with something new. Not sure what the solution is.

Some examples: Old Mill Overprints; Blue Old Mill Back; Brown Old Mills; Cycle Matty backs.

All of these variations were brought to people's attentions by collectors. In some cases they were verified as new variations (Matty back, Brown Old Mills), in some cases cards previously thought to be authentic (Old Mill Overprints) were discovered to be fraudulent, and others (Blue Old Mill) collectors are still skeptical about.

But all of these cards were slabbed.

[oldjudge]

Good points. At the end of the day, a responsible TPG should only include what they "know" on their slab, not what they have been told. It used to be that SGC would do due diligence on items they were unfamiliar with. Looks like this did not happen in this case.
Over the years, it has been the modus operandi for some dealers, who I will not mention here, to label created pieces and pieces trimmed from books, posters, etc as new discoveries, new varieties, new anything, either from ignorance or more likely to rip off the unsuspecting collector. I remember blown up Old Judges cabinets that were featured in SCD many years ago as one such example. It is the duty of TPGs to be the watchdogs for the hobby on this type of thing. Their mantra should be--if you don't know it, don't slab it, and if you put something on the slab be willing to bet your job that it is correct.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If type 2 means trimmed off a poster they got it right. I don't believe that these should be slabbed at all, not with an A and certainly not with a numerical grade. Are there any other items trimmed off a poster that get slabbed?

I am pretty sure I can dig up poster cuts from other series that have been slabbed. If not, then we have hundreds, if not thousands, of cards cut from boxes and slabbed. I have no issue with any of this except on the label it should also say "poster cut out". Then all would be good in my mind.