Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

JasonD08 · #1 08-04-2014, 06:36 AM

Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. Ozzie is on top without nobody close if we are only talking about the position defensively. Like I said if we factor in offensive numbers it may be a lot different. We did not watch but I would go out on a limb and say there is no way Wagner got to the balls he did. Yount was extremely talented but no where close on defensive range. Vizquel would be the only one closer. Jeter, Ripken, Vaughan, Yount no. If you go by offensive numbers then Ozzie would not be in top 5.

bbcard1 · #2 08-04-2014, 07:05 AM

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

jbhofmann · #3 08-04-2014, 07:26 AM

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

brewing · #4 08-04-2014, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbhofmann

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

Underrated is Alan Trammell.

BB Ref lifetime WAR
Larkin 70.2
Trammell 70.4

Larkin 1st ballot HoFer, and Trammell nowhere close to induction.

jhs5120 · #5 08-04-2014, 08:03 AM

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

bbcard1 · #6 08-04-2014, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

howard38 · #7 08-04-2014, 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=bbcard1;1305787]I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.[/QUOTE
Offensive WAR, I believe, rates Jeter's production as compared to other shortstops only. Foxx ranks lower because he is rated against first basemen which in his time alone included Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Hal Trosky, etc.

Paul S · #8 08-04-2014, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

As far as I can tell Joe and Jimmy never played shortstop. However, I decided to ask them:

Me, to Double X: Jimmy, tell me about your WAR years.

XX: I was lucky enough to have my career fall between both of them.

Me, to Joe: Tell me about your WAR years.

DiMag: I went from California to Hawaiii to Atlantic City.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjIZwv5aENQ

the 'stache · #9 08-05-2014, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

No way is Jeter the second best shortstop. Not even close. He's played a lot of games at shortstop. That's why he appears so high on your list. While there is something to be said for playing the position for so long, he's never been the most dynamic player at his position.

Jayworld · #10 08-04-2014, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

I'm right there with you on Joe Cronin; can't believe he's not on more lists here in the thread. Wagner was the best at the position, but Cronin should be up there�.

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