Opinions on Value/Authenticity

[cavaliercards]

A customer whose husband passed, just brought this into the store as she found it in his desk when cleaning it out. The item measures 5.5" x 8"

Interested in opinions on value and/or authenticity.
Thanks, Jeff

[MooseDog]

Nice piece, absolutely authentic.

[Matvoo]

Awesome piece

[jbsports33]

Great looking Autos - send to SGC or PSA for a COA!

Jimmy

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cavaliercards

A customer whose husband passed, just brought this into the store as she found it in his desk when cleaning it out. The item measures 5.5" x 8"

Interested in opinions on value and/or authenticity.
Thanks, Jeff

Jeff, this is a no-brainer: pick out a few 'big names' on this piece;e.g-Foxx,Grove,Pennock, and then try to find any exemplar that closely matches any of them. Or even easier, just try to find a close match to the first letter in any of their first or last names.

The paper, folds and pin-holes look excellent.

[Runscott]

...new reply, as I don't like editing

The names on this sheet are basically the 1933 Philadelphia Athletics (with additions), so look for exemplars of the bigger names, from that time-frame.

1930's Lefty Grove exemplars should be easy to find.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Great looking Autos - send to SGC or PSA for a COA!

I can never tell who is kidding and who is serious about grading.

Great find!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Nice piece, absolutely authentic.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Folks, we have a serious problem in the area of vintage autographs. The guys who are turning out this stuff are licking their chops when they read comments like this. I don't know if all the widows who are showing up in card shops and at auction house doorsteps are 'con-women' or if their husbands were buying crap over the years (forgeries are not the wonderful exclusive output of today's generation) or if pleasant young men are asking them to take these pieces to card shops with a story that "won't do anyone any harm".

[shelly]

Sorry wrong picture

[shelly]

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

lg.jpg

[shelly]

Just for the fun of it here is a bing miller.

bing_miller_autograph.jpg

[jbsports33]

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

[RelicSports]

I am not familiar with the authenticity for the more common players, but I would say all the "valuable" sigs such as Pennock, Foxx, Grove, Cronin etc. are secretarial/not-authenitc. Personally, I wouldn't waste my $$ sending it in to a TPA

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

Jimmy, my statements weren't in response to yours - up until your last post, I really did think you were joking about sending this item to an authenticator. It saddens me that you were serious, but I'll have a donut and feel better in a minute, so don't worry about the effects that your post had on me.

People ask questions here, not just to avoid fees, but also to avoid sending fakes in and have them end up with a JSA or PSA certificate attached to them. It's kind of like dog breeders that won't give papers to puppies that come from dogs with bad breed characteristics.

[shelly]

" Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say."

PSA and JSA dont say anything. They charge and this little bit of paper would have cost him a lot of money.
If you just looked you could have seen just by the Lefty Grove that there was at least one forged name. It would have at least given you an idea that rest might be bad as well.
I am glad Jeff put it up on this site because we saved him a great deal of money.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by shelly

Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

[perezfan]

It doesn't necessarily mean that collectors shouldn't "do" autographs. It just requires some education and awareness. This piece stood out immediately to me as being problematic, as soon as I saw the Grove and the Foxx. Plus, the uniform inks and obvious fact that most were done in the same hand were red flags as well.

But aside from that... there are troubles with virtually every segment of the hobby. If there is money to be made, the bad guys will find a way to corrupt the hobby. An autograph expert might not be able to identify any of the following...

A reproduction Pennant vs. one that's vintage
A touched-up Hartland vs. one that's all original
A restored Bobbing Head Doll vs. an original
A Type 1 photo vs. a re-strike
A reproduction Ad Sign, vs. an original
A reproduction Broadside vs. one that's vintage
A Fantasy Pinback vs. one that's real

The list could go on indefinitely. But that doesn't necessarily mean people shouldn't ever collect those things. It just means you learn as you go (as we all have).

Whichever niche of the hobby you are into, there are obstacles and fakes. Although it might be more common with autographs, it's really no different than for anything else we collect.

[djson1]

It seems many on here are convinced this is authentic, but IMHO, I thought many of the names appear to be written in the same hand.

[shelly]

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

Attachment 153821

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

Sure he did, but not like this. For that reason you would never buy it alone. And because there are so many other easily-researched fakes on this list, you have another reason for not buying it.

Any time I see an obvious fake, like the Grove, I try to find more examples on the internet. It gives clues as to where the forgeries are coming from. And if I find an authentic one that looks the same, it also keeps me from looking like an idiot.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but all the people who said this piece looks great, must think that the signatures look just like real ones they have seen in the past. But they don't, or we would be able to find exemplars that look like them, and we can't. I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

[shelly]

Jason, The one I posted is authentic. I was saying how could they say the one on the sheet could even thougt to be authentic.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

... I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Nice piece, absolutely authentic.

Do you still think it is absolutely authentic.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

I guess we misread each other's comments then. I was responding to Shelly when I said that I had one that looked exactly like his (the 3x5 of Grove that Shelly posted)...not the OP's. Like I stated, I think the Grove from the OP's sheet looks suspect. Grove usually signed smaller and slanted. That example looks tall and light-pressured.

[parker1b2]

Not to go off topic here, but I want to again thank everyone on this board as I am learning a ton, and getting better at spotting fakes. When I first saw this posting the Grove stuck out to me as looking off, but I didn't post anything. I have been collecting for about 25 years now since I was 11 years old, but until about the last 5 years most of my autos came from signings at shows. Since joining the boards I have really taken my collecting to another level for myself, as really getting into more vintage stuff ( I'm addicted now). So just wanted to say thanks, sorry for going off the topic.

[GrayGhost]

I'm not an expert by far, but several signatures on that sheet look off to me, esp the Grove. I also don't care for the C in Joe Cronin or some of the Jimmie Foxx.

[Runscott]

I only examined 6-7 of them before posting initially, and because all were bad, I didn't look at the rest.

My initial post in this thread was intended to get Jeff to go through the same exercise I did.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

Not trying to be argumentative, BUT what if he sent it to PSA and they said it was authentic? Does that make it any less fake?

Posting here for opinions is EXACTLY (for the most part) what this board is for! And you did state "Great looking Autos - send to SGC or PSA for a COA!", not "I'm not sure. Send it along with a few hundred dollars and take a chance to see if they disagree with the Net54 experts."

[shelly]

Jeff, I will say this one more time. Save your money. Not a chance in hell to get authenticated.
Wait you can send it to Morales or ACE maybe even Drew Max.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

I don't really disagree but, years ago, I decided the only autographs I wanted were ones I could get in person. As a primarily SF Giants collector, that's not impossible to do. That is obviously not true for a Ruth collector or a HOF collector or Philly A"s collector or many others. That said, autographs just don't hold much appeal for me.

Now, an autographed BAT? That's another matter!

[jbsports33]

I really do not have a problem with any one feeling the way they do, I have had signatures on many items before and have had similar issues. Sometimes members like Scott are right, but other times you just need to talk to other people then just this board. Many times I have had autos that I thought had no chance and they come back fine. I am just saying that it does not hurt to have them looked at, sometimes JSA, SGC or PSA will work with you - they want the returned business.

My posts had not been directed at Scott either, it was just a general comment I wanted to make that when researching autos - the first place to go is the COA company and see what they say first. Lean on more then one opinion for your research.

I understand I may not have done any real research with each signature - these had just been fast responses on my part and I guess before saying anything it should have been tought out better Happy Collecting

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

I really do not have a problem with any one feeling the way they do, I have had signatures on many items before and have had similar issues. Sometimes members like Scott are right, but other times you just need to talk to other people then just this board. Many times I have had autos that I thought had no chance and they come back fine. I am just saying that it does not hurt to have them looked at, sometimes JSA, SGC or PSA will work with you - they want the returned business.

My posts had not been directed at Scott either, it was just a general comment I wanted to make that when researching autos - the first place to go is the COA company and see what they say first. Lean on more then one opinion for your research.

Jimmy,
Nothing personal as I don't know you, and you are correct that we are all entitled to our opinion, BUT if I read and understood, your remarks correctly, this is one of the worst responses ever.

So what you're implying is that, because the COA companies want the return business, they will "work with you" and certify things that may or may not be real. If a signature is bad, it doesn't matter what cert you have, it doesn't make the auto good. Who you want to ask to find out the authenticity of an auto is not the COA company, it's the people you trust the most to know the subject matter and to be honest with you. I trust the knowledge and honesty of the people on this board waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I will ever trust the TPAs. At least I know that the people here have no financial motivation to give a falsely positive or negative opinion.

If my interpretation is correct, I'm sorry to say, that I would have a hard time ever buying an autograph from you. Your implication is that if it's certed, you'll sell it as real, even if you don't think it is.
So not true.

If my understanding of your position is incorrect, then I apologize fully.
Best,
M@rk Vel@rde

[Runscott]

I have to completely agree with Mark's post above. Jimmy doesn't seem to have any understanding of the how the TPAs' businesses work;e.g-their incentive to pass autographs, or the level of expertise on this board and in most cases, our lack of incentive to say 'yes' to a forgery.

He also doesn't seem to have any confidence in his own ability to do a little bit of research, which astounds me. If you want to own a real autograph, it is imperative that you learn how to distinguish real ones from fakes.

Jimmy - you are not alone, so don't be offended, but your comments are flabbergasting, not that I am certain what that word means.

[shelly]

Jimmey, send everything to the tpa's. This is a place that will never make you happy. Right or wrong we will be wrong.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

For what it's worth anyways, I'll post the Lefty Grove's that I have. The two 3x5 cards look like the one Shelly posted. I'm not sure about the ball, but it does seem authentic, IMO. Any opinions on the ball are welcome. Anyways, to the OP, they look very different from the one on that signed page.

[shelly]

Jason, just curious who else is on the ball?

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Jason, just curious who else is on the ball?

It's some old timers ball (circa 1970s?)... the more notables include Johnny Mize, Tommy Holmes, Ted Klu, and Monte Irvin, etc. There are minor stars such as Jim Gilliam, Dick Sisler, and Wally Post, etc. There is also a secretarial Campy.
Did you think the Grove looked iffy? I thought it seemed kind of sloppy, but since it was on a ball, I could understand the slight variation a bit.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shelly

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

It is bad on the card side too....but with a trimmed card there is still some value. With a forged signature, not so much. You guys do a good job and just reading this stuff has helped me spot some fake Ruths. I doubt I ever collect autos but a few have come from just being in the card game. I always appreciate ya'lls help.

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by shelly

Do you still think it is absolutely authentic.

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

[jbsports33]

Well, I guess there was some confusion to what I said and there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post. Sorry if my statement was mis-leading and I thought the COA companies had some credit in the Autograph hobby. I will be honest, I am mostly a card guy and always have been, but over the years have had my experiences with autographs. Something needs to change in the autograph business if there are things going on that I am learning from this post – sorry I came off strong at times, but the fact is sometimes it can be hard to say anything on this board. I guess you learn from participating as Leon said in his post, I think next time – my responses will not be as long and confusing. I fully understand the comments Mark mentioned and it was not my intention to say to everyone – they need to blow their money on a COA

Jimmy

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Well, I guess there was some confusion to what I said and there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post. Sorry if my statement was mis-leading and I thought the COA companies had some credit in the Autograph hobby. I will be honest, I am mostly a card guy and always have been, but over the years have had my experiences with autographs. Something needs to change in the autograph business if there are things going on that I am learning from this post – sorry I came off strong at times, but the fact is sometimes it can be hard to say anything on this board. I guess you learn from participating as Leon said in his post, I think next time – my responses will not be as long and confusing. I fully understand the comments Mark mentioned and it was not my intention to say to everyone – they need to blow their money on a COA

Jimmy

Jimmy, I don't think you come off too strong, or that you need to worry about responding. If you think it's "hard to say anything on this board" and don't feel like putting out the effort, that's up to you, but the only thing difficult that you have to worry about is analyzing your audience prior to speaking. If you don't feel like doing that, then just realize that you might get some strong disagreement if you are in the minority, but that, like the rest of us, it's the internet and unless things devolve into a battle of name-calling, most of us will forget it.

I also think that there was Zero confusion about what you said. You simply stated things that astounded some of us.

And finally, your black-or-white statement that there "there seems to be no trust in the COA companies on this board or at least some of the members from this post" is a distortion of what we have said. A truer statement would be that YOU seem to place complete trust in the COA companies to do your thinking for you. To sum up succinctly: sending this garbage to a TPA would be a waste of time and money. Going to the TPA's before you go here is your option. Going to the TPA's after reading this thread would be just plain stupid - yes, they might put a COA on it (but I doubt it), but it WILL NOT MAKE IT REAL.

Talk with you soon, I'm sure.

[Runscott]

...and not having trust in the TPA's is a lot different from thinking they have no place in the hobby. Most of us just want to see improvements. Until they are willing to spend more time studying autographs and doing the research that some of us do, we are going to have to rely on forums like this. If you don't think that is wise, then spin the roulette wheel.

In addition, some of the people who come here asking authenticity questions are doing it for items that already have TPA approval - they want a real autograph, not a pretty certificate. The people who buy more expensive vintage autographs from me almost never ask about COA's. I frequently find COA's from JSA or PSA lying around months after I sold an autograph (yes, I save them), then email the customer and ask if they want it.

That should tell you something.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

My apologies for responding so strongly. These items exist for a reason and a lot of very intelligent collectors have owned some of them.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

In light of other learned opinions, I suppose not, but I'm not going to get into arguments about it.

It would appear I could have been wrong with my initial assessment.

It takes a strong person to admit they where mistaken

[nolemmings]

I'm not an autograph guy and have no problems with the opinions expressed in this thread, but was still wondering a couple of things.

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

1. Is it the consensus that all of these signatures are bogus? I too saw the similarity of several signatures--Mellilo and Higgins, the F's in Foxx and Fritz, most of the capital "J's" etc, but wondered if any of them are legit.

Yes.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

2. Suppose some are legit on a piece like this, and that even if some were ghost signed it was not done for any real malevolent purpose (like Pinky saying "hey Oscar sign for me too, I'm eating"). Does the presence of some or even mostly all bad sigs torpedo the value of the entire item? Would it be better from a value statement to just salvage and cut out the good signatures?

I think it depends on several variables....
1) how many are real vs not. - The more that are real the more valuable as a group.

2) is the item in question historically significant to the signers(like a program from a game they all played or a testimonial program) - The more significant the item, the more valuable as a group.

3) perhaps most importantly which are real and which aren't. If the only real ones are the lesser guys, it's possible the separated cuts would be worth more. If most of the big names were real, I think leaving it together might be better.

[Runscott]

I looked at 6 or 7 and they were all bad. I then looked at similarities in writing and it confirmed to me that the piece was bad, and that it was probably that all signatures were bad (6-7 bad ones on a piece like this is not normal secretarial work).

There were a couple I looked at that I could not find a similar exemplar, but they did have similarities to real ones, so I didn't rule out that the signature was an anomaly;e.g-Bing Miller. In general, it didn't look like the forger spent that much time trying to make any of them close to a real signature - he seemed more concerned with getting the right overall look to the piece;e.g-signature placement, some light-some dark,some large-some small, pinholes, lots of folds.

When I was a kid we used to create forged sheets like this, using Topps baseball card signatures. It was kind of fun. It could be that this was created way back when, for fun - not malicious.