Opinions on Value/Authenticity

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Nice piece, absolutely authentic.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Folks, we have a serious problem in the area of vintage autographs. The guys who are turning out this stuff are licking their chops when they read comments like this. I don't know if all the widows who are showing up in card shops and at auction house doorsteps are 'con-women' or if their husbands were buying crap over the years (forgeries are not the wonderful exclusive output of today's generation) or if pleasant young men are asking them to take these pieces to card shops with a story that "won't do anyone any harm".

[shelly]

Sorry wrong picture

[shelly]

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

lg.jpg

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by shelly

Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

[perezfan]

It doesn't necessarily mean that collectors shouldn't "do" autographs. It just requires some education and awareness. This piece stood out immediately to me as being problematic, as soon as I saw the Grove and the Foxx. Plus, the uniform inks and obvious fact that most were done in the same hand were red flags as well.

But aside from that... there are troubles with virtually every segment of the hobby. If there is money to be made, the bad guys will find a way to corrupt the hobby. An autograph expert might not be able to identify any of the following...

A reproduction Pennant vs. one that's vintage
A touched-up Hartland vs. one that's all original
A restored Bobbing Head Doll vs. an original
A Type 1 photo vs. a re-strike
A reproduction Ad Sign, vs. an original
A reproduction Broadside vs. one that's vintage
A Fantasy Pinback vs. one that's real

The list could go on indefinitely. But that doesn't necessarily mean people shouldn't ever collect those things. It just means you learn as you go (as we all have).

Whichever niche of the hobby you are into, there are obstacles and fakes. Although it might be more common with autographs, it's really no different than for anything else we collect.

[shelly]

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shelly

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

It is bad on the card side too....but with a trimmed card there is still some value. With a forged signature, not so much. You guys do a good job and just reading this stuff has helped me spot some fake Ruths. I doubt I ever collect autos but a few have come from just being in the card game. I always appreciate ya'lls help.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

I don't really disagree but, years ago, I decided the only autographs I wanted were ones I could get in person. As a primarily SF Giants collector, that's not impossible to do. That is obviously not true for a Ruth collector or a HOF collector or Philly A"s collector or many others. That said, autographs just don't hold much appeal for me.

Now, an autographed BAT? That's another matter!

[jbsports33]

I really do not have a problem with any one feeling the way they do, I have had signatures on many items before and have had similar issues. Sometimes members like Scott are right, but other times you just need to talk to other people then just this board. Many times I have had autos that I thought had no chance and they come back fine. I am just saying that it does not hurt to have them looked at, sometimes JSA, SGC or PSA will work with you - they want the returned business.

My posts had not been directed at Scott either, it was just a general comment I wanted to make that when researching autos - the first place to go is the COA company and see what they say first. Lean on more then one opinion for your research.

I understand I may not have done any real research with each signature - these had just been fast responses on my part and I guess before saying anything it should have been tought out better Happy Collecting

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

Attachment 153821

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

Sure he did, but not like this. For that reason you would never buy it alone. And because there are so many other easily-researched fakes on this list, you have another reason for not buying it.

Any time I see an obvious fake, like the Grove, I try to find more examples on the internet. It gives clues as to where the forgeries are coming from. And if I find an authentic one that looks the same, it also keeps me from looking like an idiot.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but all the people who said this piece looks great, must think that the signatures look just like real ones they have seen in the past. But they don't, or we would be able to find exemplars that look like them, and we can't. I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

[shelly]

Jason, The one I posted is authentic. I was saying how could they say the one on the sheet could even thougt to be authentic.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

... I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

[shelly]

Just for the fun of it here is a bing miller.

bing_miller_autograph.jpg

[jbsports33]

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

[RelicSports]

I am not familiar with the authenticity for the more common players, but I would say all the "valuable" sigs such as Pennock, Foxx, Grove, Cronin etc. are secretarial/not-authenitc. Personally, I wouldn't waste my $$ sending it in to a TPA

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

Jimmy, my statements weren't in response to yours - up until your last post, I really did think you were joking about sending this item to an authenticator. It saddens me that you were serious, but I'll have a donut and feel better in a minute, so don't worry about the effects that your post had on me.

People ask questions here, not just to avoid fees, but also to avoid sending fakes in and have them end up with a JSA or PSA certificate attached to them. It's kind of like dog breeders that won't give papers to puppies that come from dogs with bad breed characteristics.

[shelly]

" Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say."

PSA and JSA dont say anything. They charge and this little bit of paper would have cost him a lot of money.
If you just looked you could have seen just by the Lefty Grove that there was at least one forged name. It would have at least given you an idea that rest might be bad as well.
I am glad Jeff put it up on this site because we saved him a great deal of money.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

Never clearly stated it was authentic, just needs to be sent in for a look and if I had it, I would at least invest in the money to see what comes out of it – yes we have a problem in this hobby with many autographs. I have bought and sold a lot over the years, but its statements, like on this post that make me not want to say anything on this board. The problem is that no one wants to do that extra step of sending autographs in for a look – instead they go on boards like this first and Jeff you had every right to ask. Board members are here to help – but it’s hard to give any kind of opinion when there is always responses like this. Yes it would be a possibility that some of them had been added to look good, but that is why we have to see items in person too! Take it to PSA and SGC or even JSA and just see what they say

Jimmy

Not trying to be argumentative, BUT what if he sent it to PSA and they said it was authentic? Does that make it any less fake?

Posting here for opinions is EXACTLY (for the most part) what this board is for! And you did state "Great looking Autos - send to SGC or PSA for a COA!", not "I'm not sure. Send it along with a few hundred dollars and take a chance to see if they disagree with the Net54 experts."

[shelly]

Jeff, I will say this one more time. Save your money. Not a chance in hell to get authenticated.
Wait you can send it to Morales or ACE maybe even Drew Max.