T207 Red Cross (known examples)

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by Leon

It should't be too difficult to find those other 2 cards somewhere......

You would think... especially given the fact that I've seen so many articles/posts where people say they were all Chicago players. I've also seen mention that all 4 cards had glue residue on the top of the reverse (just like your Weaver there). It seems like quite a few people have all the info on these cards... EXCEPT which players were on them.

That's a nice Weaver. Do you have any info about its history? Lew Lipset mentions the original 4 card find was made in 1983. Do you know anything about that find or where this card went between then and when it ended up in your collection?

[Bridwell]

I'm sure one of the missing two is Ward Miller. The other is rumored to be Joe Benz. I'm the owner of the Adams SGC 50.

[frohme]

With Leon's ubiquitous Weaver above, these are the other ones I've seen an image of. The 11 accounted ones for in your list, I believe.

Like Ron, and others, I have Benz as a definite, and both Ward Miller (two separate confirmations) and George Mogridge only 1 as the possible other card(s).

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

Like Ron, and others, I have Benz as a definite, and both Ward Miller (two separate confirmations) and George Mogridge only 1 as the possible other card(s).

Wait... you say there are 2 different WARD Miller cards? And a Benz? And Mogridge?

If that's the case then you just took the list to at least 15. That can't be right can it?

EDIT - I think I read that wrong... you're saying you have 2 confirmations of ONE Ward Miller card... not 2 separate cards.

So the 11 I have listed plus Benz plus Ward Miller OR George Mogridge (13 total cards)? Or 11 plus Benz, Ward Miller, AND Mogridge (14 total cards)?

[frohme]

Originally Posted by ZachS

EDIT - I think I read that wrong... you're saying you have 2 confirmations of ONE Ward Miller card... not 2 separate cards.

yes, correct.

Originally Posted by ZachS

So the 11 I have listed plus Benz plus Ward Miller OR George Mogridge (13 total cards)? Or 11 plus Benz, Ward Miller, AND Mogridge (14 total cards)?

Everything I've read/heard (including your last quote) seems to imply 14 cards. If the Ward Miller find is accurate as quoted, it probably would have been known between the Lange find and the Louisiana find.

Which would make 14 cards of 13 players, with only the Blackburne as having more than one. Note that the two individual Blackburne images above are the before and after the "cleanup" referenced in certain threads to get a PSA 3... back damage and all.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

Everything I've read/heard (including your last quote) seems to imply 14 cards. If the Ward Miller find is accurate as quoted, it probably would have been known between the Lange find and the Louisiana find.

Which would make 14 cards of 13 players, with only the Blackburne as having more than one. Note that the two individual Blackburne images above are the before and after the "cleanup" referenced in certain threads to get a PSA 3... back damage and all.

Everything I've read/heard seems to imply 13 cards. I've repeatedly seen mention of 5 cards being known prior to the Louisiana Find of 8 cards:

4 in the first discovery from Louisiana (1983?)
1 a while later supposedly in NJ (Lange SGC 10 was sold by Mastro in 2007)
8 in the Louisiana Find of 2010 (these 8 are definitely known)

I agree that there are definitely TWO Blackburne cards (1 from the first discovery that is in a PSA 3 holder and 1 from the LA Find that is in an SGC 10 holder).

You make mention of the Ward Miller find being between the Lange and the LA Find but I've never heard of a card being found outside of the 3 "finds" that I mentioned. I have also been unable to find a picture of the Miller card anywhere but several people have mentioned Miller being found with a Red Cross back. I'm leaning toward the opinion that Miller may have been 1 in the group of 4 found in 1983 along with Leon's Weaver and the PSA 3 Blackburne that had glue removed from the back.

I found this quote from Jay Behrens in an article about the LA Find:

“I know that 12 of the 13 known t207 Red Cross cards have come from Louisiana,” said Behrens.

Doesn't he post here? Hopefully he can chime in and shed some light on this.

[hshrimps]

I didn't know there are two Blackburne for Red Cross back.

[frohme]

Zach,

Originally Posted by ZachS

I'm leaning toward the opinion that Miller may have been 1 in the group of 4 found in 1983 along with Leon's Weaver and the PSA 3 Blackburne that had glue removed from the back.

That would make the most sense to me, as my statement of "Miller being between Lange and the LA find" was based on various forum posts dated between the two, and implying that one had been buried in an long-time collector's goup of T207s (and recently discovered). That said, it did not imply that it was not in the early find - I made that distinction myself.

The other aspect was my recollection of the statements about the early find. I don't have access to resources right now, but recall - and it is my recollection only - that it contained all White Sox cards, and was not just Chicago cards. My memory isn't what it once was, so I may be way off base.

FWIW, Old Cardboard has it both ways:

Until four T207 Red Cross cards were auctioned by hobby veteran Lew Lipset some two decades ago, the T207 Red Cross backs were unknown to the hobby. Three of these cards were for players Russell Blackburne, Ward Miller and George "Buck" Weaver. After checking with Lew and several long-time T207 set collectors, we were unable to identify the fourth player from the early discovery. If any of our readers can confirm the identity of the player that fourth card, please do so and we will update the set checklist on the Old Cardboard website accordingly.
...
Interestingly, the origins of all but one of the Red-Cross-back cards can be traced directly back to Louisiana, where they were no doubt first distributed. Curiously, all of the known players from the previous discoveries were for Chicago White Sox players ....

Also, just found this reference from one of the previous incarnations of the old forums: http://forum1.aimoo.com/vintagebaseb...-1-687906.html

Apparently, even in early 2007, there was knowledge about (or contention of) 6 separate Red Cross backed cards, though there is the same glossing over of Chicago vs WhiteSox even then, as clearly Ward Miller was a Cubbie.

All that said, there seems to be a lot of re-quoting and reading in to what was said/written/recalled (and I'm equally guilty), so going back to the source(s) seems appropriate, if at all possible. At least we now know for certain its not just WhiteSox.

Still, 13 or 14 cards, either way its a small number, and we have other open items:

• The RedCross/LA connection is a tantalizing curiousity worth investigation
• as far as anyone knows - the RedCross <-> Broadleaf class alignment still holds.

Now if you want to talk Anonymous cards (i.e. Fac 3), that's another can of worms...

--
Mike

[ZachS]

I found this thread mentioning Ward Miller http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84140

I also know that when I sold the Blackburne, there had been another (5th) card discovered at the time - a Ward Miller I believe (if I remember correctly). The Miller was discovered in NJ by an old time collector who had it in with his other T207's.

Since he made mention of the 5th card (the lone card found between the 1983 find and the 2010 find) I dismissed it as a case of mistaken identity. The lone card should be Lange. Now that you mention Miller as well we might be on to something.

I can't believe it's this difficult to figure out these 2 cards with so many people talking about them in past articles.