OT: Who should be in the Hall that isn't

[cardsfan73]

If there was a Hall OF Really Really Good Players a lot of these guys would be in! As far as modern guys I think Vlad Guerrero has a good shot.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Stephen Drew? Adrian Beltre is probably more eligible than 75% of that modern list, yet isn't accounted for.


Nap Rucker
Marty Marion
Omar Vizquel
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez
Albert Belle
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.

[Peter_Spaeth]

None of the above.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of the above.

LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910

LOL, Peter. You know you want Omar in, Man.

The Indians had some great hitting teams in the 90s, but it seemed Omar was always the one who torched the Red Sox.

[Jewish-collector]

A better question is who is in the HOF who shouldn't ? About 1/3 the inductees.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Omar Vizquel
Tommy John
T Oliva
Mattingly Don
Luis Tiant
Marion
Open the Hall,
Let em in, in, in

[bobbvc]

Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Still waiting for a "real" Hall of Fame. 40 man roster. If someone goes in, someone comes out. (Ok, they could just move down an aisle). But would love to see a HOF where there weren't any guys "on the bubble".

Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed. Although I think I would go higher than 40. Maybe to 100 or so tops.

Yeah, I know. I said 40 because of 40 man rosters. Another barrier to entry in my HOF. No voting for players who were playing when you were alive.
Especially in the voting for MLB players of the 20th Century, I always thought recent players had major bias in favor, to the point of not being able to take that team seriously. (I'm referring to the team the fans and MLB voted on in 1999 or so).

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's funny, on this board it seems to me there is the exact opposite bias, the romantic overrating of old time players relative to modern players.

[cardsfan73]

I am confused, are we talking about players who belong in the Hall Of Fame? Or players we like?

A lot of good ball players being mentioned here but I have yet to see a name mentioned (that is no longer eligible) who belongs in the Hall. Just my opinion though.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by CobbvLajoie1910

Fred McGriff -- agree with Ian; its a travesty he's not looked at more favorably.

The question is if he hit 7 more HRs would he be in the Hall.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's funny, on this board it seems to me there is the exact opposite bias, the romantic overrating of old time players relative to modern players.

This is pretty true. If Rickey Henderson played in the 1910s he'd be better then Ty Cobb.

[Brian Van Horn]

If based strictly on batting:

Pete Browning
Babe Herman
Riggs Stephenson

Other players for consideration:

Baby Doll Jacobson
Charlie Grimm
Emil Meusel
Bob Meusel
Stuffy McInnis
Bob Veach
Bob Johnson

Pitchers:

Tommy John
Tony Mullane
Jim McCormick

Both player and pitcher:

Kid Gleason (over 1900 hits and 138 wins)

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Other players for consideration:

Baby Doll Jacobson
Charlie Grimm
Emil Meusel
Bob Meusel
Stuffy McInnis
Bob Veach
Bob Johnson

You have pretty low HOF standards, IMHO.

Baby Doll Jacobson? Career 112 OPS+, less than 100 HRs, and only 1700 hits.

Charlie Grimm? A 1B with a career OPS+ of just 94?!? Has a much stronger case as a manager and absolutely zero case as a player.

Emil Meusel? Simply didn't play enough. 9 seasons (discounting his 1 game in 1914 and 42 in 1927) just ain't enough. And he wasn't elite in those 9 seasons.

Bob Muesel? Decent enough candidate though he also didn't really play long enough. Just 11 years, none of which were GREAT by the standards of the day. With a higher peak, maybe he gets in.

Stuffy McInnis? A 1B with a career .381 slugging percentage? Even by dead ball era standards, that's terrible.

Bobby Veach? This one's a pretty solid pick. The Hall isn't incomplete by his absence but he is a much better candidate than I expected when I looked him up. Certainly a lot better than some of the other guys on this list.

Bob Johnson? Yep. Hurt by being in the shadow of other, greater players of the era but he probably belongs.

[Batter67up]

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

I'm with you on that sentiment, and in many more instances than Klein (Mr McGriff included.. Do seriously only 11% think he deserves the nod? And if so, did they pay attention in the late '80's and '90's?).

In recent years, hearing many of these writers' interviews has been a nauseating experience. I do think a lot of these guys really know the game, but there seem to be nearly as many that love the opportunity to get on a soap box and grandstand (think photo ops during senate hearings). When I hear or read the bad ones, I often think of Max Mercy doing everything he could to discredit Roy Hobbs in the Natural... A guy who never played the game, and probably at heart loves to destroy boyhood idols because he's secretly jealous of all the attention these jocks got when he was was kid. This of course is not representative of all, but Max often comes to mind, and I have lost a lot of respect for many of them over the past several yearS. (though do love Scott Ostler from the SF Chron)

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

How about what they did to Santo?

writers are like lawyers- an unfortunate necessity.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

writers are like lawyers- an unfortunate necessity.

Them's fightin words on this board!

Given that my wife and 4 of my 6 siblings/siblings in laws have JDs, I have to say I concur though

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Batter67up

Gil Hodges &
Don Newcombe

The Hall is not much more than a popularity contest. Look at Chuck Klein he got voted in after he passed away by the Veterans Committee yet he was 1932 MVP, 4 time Homerun Champion, 2 Time RBI Champion, 320 Lifetime Avg, 300 Homeruns. He got elected in 1980 and passed away in 1958. When I looked at this, I lost a lot of respect for the writers who elect the inductees.

Chuck Klein was the 1930s version of Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Jim Rice, and a whole host of other guys whose numbers were enormously inflated by their home ballparks. In 1931, for example, he hit .401 with 22 HRs at home and just .269 with 9 HRs on the road. He basically had a 5-year run of greatness thanks to Baker Bowl with a fine 1936 season mixed in.

Klein is also, I believe, the only guy besides Ted Williams to win the Triple Crown in a season but not also win the MVP (Williams did it twice).

Bottom line: The writers got it right by not electing Klein.

[Tabe]

Why am I seeing Ozzie Smith compared to Don Mattingly & Keith Hernandez? Ozzie played a super-premium defensive position at probably the highest level ever. Mattingly & Hernandez played what is - by far - the easiest defensive position. There's a reason the slow guys who can barely bend over play 1B. Hernandez gets no consideration because he never even once hit 20 HRs. Sorry, you play 1B, you gotta hit with power. It's the nature of the position.

Let me put it another way: Keith Hernandez was basically John Olerud, only with (a lot) less power. Anybody clamoring for Olerud to get in?

[Ejm1]

Tony Oliva, Fred McGriff, Roger Maris, Peter Edward Rose,

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Why am I seeing Ozzie Smith compared to Don Mattingly & Keith Hernandez? Ozzie played a super-premium defensive position at probably the highest level ever. Mattingly & Hernandez played what is - by far - the easiest defensive position. There's a reason the slow guys who can barely bend over play 1B. Hernandez gets no consideration because he never even once hit 20 HRs. Sorry, you play 1B, you gotta hit with power. It's the nature of the position.

Let me put it another way: Keith Hernandez was basically John Olerud, only with (a lot) less power. Anybody clamoring for Olerud to get in?

If you read the entire thread, you'd see I made the point that shortstop was a far more difficult position than first base. A shortstop will have to make more throws than a first baseman, and those throws are more difficult. And, a shortstop will have more responsibilities. They may have to get the ball when its been hit in their general vicinity. They may have to cover the bag on a steal, or turn a double play. So much of playing shortstop is body positioning, and while being in position to make a play, avoiding a guy that's trying to slide into you. But you make it sound like playing first base in the Major Leagues is like playing Hello Kitty with a 10 year old. When Chris Davis, or some other similar left handed superstar power hitter turns a 98 mile per hour fastball into a line drive headed towards right field, you only have a split second to react, and that's often with a base runner interfering with you. And while only the slow guys that can barely bend over play first, of those slow guys that can barely bend over (and there have been a lot of them), Mattingly and Hernandez were by far the best at their position defensively.

And the reason nobody is clamoring for John Olerud to get in is because he was never the best player in baseball. Not by a long shot. Mattingly in his prime was putting up Triple Crown-worthy numbers while playing defense better than anybody else in his league. Keith Hernandez, while not ever the best player in the game, at least was voted the best player in his league for one year. And a big part of the reason he won the MVP is his defense. Somehow he did that while hitting 11 home runs. I guess the voters that year didn't get the memo that first basemen had to be power hitters.

And by the way, nobody here is really "clamoring" for Mattingly or Hernandez to get into the Hall of Fame, either. I stated that Mattingly would likely never get in. This is interesting discussion on how some players that were spectacular defensively at their position can get in based on their defense alone, while other players who were also elite defensively at a different position, while being a top tier hitter, gets overlooked. Yes, we did take it a step further that Mattingly should at least get another look. But nobody here is organizing a massive letter writing campaign targeting the BBWAA.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Let me put it another way: Keith Hernandez was basically John Olerud, only with (a lot) less power. Anybody clamoring for Olerud to get in?

Actually, yes. See Bill James, often regarded as the best ever at determining a player's true value (as opposed to what the public, or sportswriters, perceive that player to be worth):

"In recent years it has been suggested that the Cy Young Award for Felix Hernandez or the Hall of Fame selection of Bert Blyleven show how far sabermetrics has come in winning general acceptance. Well, let me suggest that the near-unanimous rejection of John Olerud shows how far we haven’t come…. In my analysis, John Olerud rates as an obvious Hall of Famer."

Furthermore, Hernandez was a superior defensiver player and far more influential team leader than Olerud.