Virginia Brights boxes

[jerrys]

Helmar high quality premiums being given away free with a ten cent pack of TT cigarettes at an incalculable number of tobacco stores! Not possible. T3s are Turkey Red cigarettes premiums.

Is the Factory 25 March 12, 1889 the 20 pack? The date is perfect - how much is it?

[rhettyeakley]

I think you guys are overcomplicating things a bit. I have little doubt that they were likely referring to T3's.

The Turkish Cigarette brands were ATC brands and they likely didn't mind cross-advertising other products. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were very similar brands and in some cases even produced the same series of cards at the same time (T52 Costumes of All Nations). Also given the fact this is an "outside of the package" ad sticker I don't think it is outside the realm of possibilities that it was simply a test promotion or a hastily put together one (to the tune of giving out a premium with a Turkish Trophy box that doesn't specifically refer to that exact brand), also keep in mind that what we call "T3 Turkey Red" cards were also advertised and given away just as much with FEZ and OLD MILL cigarettes as they were Turkey Red, we only call them "Turkey Red" cards because some of the second series had that advertised on back without the checklist, but had the second series of cards not been produced they wouldn't be called simply "Tukey Reds" as they advertised the other brands just as much as the Turkey Red brand. Another thing to keep in mind is that maybe the ones given away with this promotion are the non-advertising "checklist only" cards that are rarely seen today.

A similar type of promotion was done with the Hamilton King (or T7) girl cards. We think of these as "send-away" premiums but I found a VERY brittle envelope some years back containing a complete set of the "Flag Girls" that had instructions for the retailer very similar to what was probably furnished with the shipment of "ball player photo prints" that we see on the Turkish Trophies boxes above...

[1880nonsports]

"I think you guys are overcomplicating things a bit. I have little doubt that they were likely referring to T3's."
"There was quite a bit of "cross-pollination" within the ATC of their inserts and premium issues."

Nicely expressed. I'm not used to having support. It seemed to me the only likely choice.
Jerry - the "20" isn't for sale.

[jerrys]

The sticker on the TT pack states: "photo print of a famous base ball players....." and the question is what photo print is being referred to. I don't believe there is over complications here; just a question looking for a real answer. By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing. It hasn't even been established whether this TT pack was produced in the 1910-1911 time frame.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion. T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

Henry - you knew that I knew. Anyway this is the cigarette pack article I sent to SCD in 2005. They made a black and white collage out of all of the images.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

[the 'stache]

Some absolutely beautiful collections, gentlemen.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jerrys

The sticker on the TT pack states: "photo print of a famous base ball players....." and the question is what photo print is being referred to. I don't believe there is over complications here; just a question looking for a real answer. By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing. It hasn't even been established whether this TT pack was produced in the 1910-1911 time frame.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion. T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

Henry - you knew that I knew. Anyway this is the cigarette pack article I sent to SCD in 2005. They made a black and white collage out of all of the images.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

The tax stamp on the Turkish Trophy box in question is from 1909 and is a series of 1910. It doesn't have an overprint so can't be pinpointed to the exact year. These stamps with this series of 1910 were made between 1910 - 1916. It is a Factory 7 District 3 NY box. I wouldn't doubt if it was a short promo for T3 cards. I bet someday we will find definitive proof and that is what keeps the hobby interesting to me.

[1880nonsports]

please refer to "gift slip" if you have one in hand - if not I can make a scan of one. I'm specifically looking at coupon number 89-6-14 as it was issued from the Anargyros factory 7 - 3rd district for the cards (only Hamilton King Girls)/silks/leathers/large leathers "presents". "Turkish Trophies Gift slips.......and Helmar Gift Slips......are of equal value in securing presents......". This suggests some of the possible muddling between brands and promotions as a result of being under the ATC.
I would agree that it would be nice to have an answer. Lacking that - reasoned conjecture seems a likely path to travel down. Not so sure anyone is "guessing" - I read your article a while back and will look at it again later - I have to believe you made some guesses :-). When people I respect make guesses I look at it a little differently than a carnival barker.
As the pack has now been revealed as within the correct time frame for ATC promotions (even the additional couple of years beyond the 1910-1914 period suggested by a 1909/1910 act/series don't nessesarily preclude the relationship either as has been demonstrated with similar promotions undertaken by the ATC) I think that the T3's are a favorably weighted choice. Maybe if we all keep "guessing" - we'll eventually get to the correct conclusion in the absence of reliable emperical evidence.

[1880nonsports]

and I too detected an edge of something raspy in Jerry's tone and tenor in the thread that surprised me. I didn't mention it because I didn't want him to yell at me. Jerry? I think we were just trying to see what the possibilities are? I find eating a good breakfast makes me feel better longer..............

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by jerrys

By personally having little doubt the T3 is the photo print in question is not fact. Surely there must be a better reason than guessing.

Your post strays into extraneous matters without demonstrating any logical connection to your T3 opinion.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

I never said it was fact, merely my opinion and stated what I based my opinion on, I don't feel it was too extraneous to point out the Turkish Trophy brand had done a similar promotion previously with cards of exactly the same size as T3's.

Originally Posted by jerrys

T3s are premiums of Turkey Red, Fez and Old Mill not Helmar. Helmar and Turkish Trophies were not similar brands - TT was a brand of Helmar.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

Helmar was a separate brand, Turkish Trophies was not a "brand of Helmar," S. Anarygos was the parent "pseudo-comany" and had many sub-brands during that time including Egyptian Deities and others. Look at the T350 imitation cigar label series, there are 5 different brands that were all included in the same packs at the same time... Turkish Trophies, Helmar, Mogul, Murad and Egyptian Deities. You are speaking of these brands like they were all owned by different companies and it wouldn't make sense for a TR to advertise TT, which just is not true. The "cross-pollination" Henry speaks about was commonplace for their promotions.

Originally Posted by jerrys

BTW as I recall the production of T3s were exhausted in 1911 and the message to send in coupons was removed from these cabinets in order to ease demand. There was actually a shortage of these cabinets; not a surplus to supply endless tobacco stores - even if this theory was true.

http://js-gallery.net/packs.htm

This has never been proven that these "no-checklist/brand" cards were done when the supply was dwindling. The fact that the no checklist back is on Series 1 cards only actually would seem to indicate that was not the case.


Jerry, you seem like a nice guy and I respect your opinion greatly so I'm not sure why you seem so dismissive of everyone else's theories/educated guesses. I'd love to hear your theory as to what was being given out.