Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

If that's the cost in America, I'm sure it's a fraction of that in Mexico and China. Even at 50k he could afford it, he's made that in a days worth of scamming.
I'll end this here, there's really no point in arguing where these slabs came from. The fakes are good and that's that.

No. The $50,000 is to have it done in China, per your example/claim. Further refinements of the prototype, manufacturing, plus the initial order could easily run $250k if you wanted an exact holder. And even then, it might not be the same.

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.

What may seem like a very basic approach is the importance of knowing the seller. It is not uncommon for collectibles to be valued at five, six or even seven-figure levels in some cases. If you were buying a watch for $5,000, would you purchase it from a company or someone you didn't recognize or know? If not, the first prudent step would be asking for good references. The same approach should be used in the collectibles market. It is imperative that you find a reputable dealer or auction house to buy from. Remember, it is your money.

If you are directly solicited by a person or company with whom you have no prior dealings or relationship, you should approach the offer with caution, particularly if such an offer is coupled with a deal that seems too good to be true. These are warning signs. Ironically, the lure of a quick profit often overrides one's common sense. Don't let this happen to you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

No. The $50,000 is to have it done in China, per your example/claim. Further refinements of the prototype, manufacturing, plus the initial order could easily run $250k if you wanted an exact holder. And even then, it might not be the same.

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.

What may seem like a very basic approach is the importance of knowing the seller. It is not uncommon for collectibles to be valued at five, six or even seven-figure levels in some cases. If you were buying a watch for $5,000, would you purchase it from a company or someone you didn't recognize or know? If not, the first prudent step would be asking for good references. The same approach should be used in the collectibles market. It is imperative that you find a reputable dealer or auction house to buy from. Remember, it is your money.

If you are directly solicited by a person or company with whom you have no prior dealings or relationship, you should approach the offer with caution, particularly if such an offer is coupled with a deal that seems too good to be true. These are warning signs. Ironically, the lure of a quick profit often overrides one's common sense. Don't let this happen to you.

Mike- I assume you have spoken to the Secret Service and the Dept of Homeland Security about this scammer allegedly in Mexico? I am sure you know there has been an investigation going on for years now. Whether he is cracking and resealing slabs or having them fabricated, I am not sure, but he is good. Hopefully the new holders from PSA and SGC will prevent him from doing his trade.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by MW1

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.
[/I]

I'll check when I get home, but I think many if not a majority of my PSA holders show signs of frosting.. some even have little micro-cracks. I think the many of these are legit beyond a doubt, but presumably have picked up these traits due to wear and tear.

I've never cracked a PSA holder, so don't know if the frosting on a compromised holder is so much different than the frosting I've seen on mine. Would love to see all these holders side by side and in hand at some point (real, real with frosting, poorly cracked lots of frosting, well cracked minimal frosting, fake, etc).

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by MW1

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

Evan,

You bring up an important point here that should not be understated. Whenever you are spending money on graded sports cards--especially if that sum is an excess of $1000--it pays to know who the seller is. If you don't know, ask for some references or explore that seller's online sales history. There is a huge difference between purchasing graded cards from a knowledgeable dealer who has been in business for 25 or more years and a upstart seller on eBay whose source for inventory is craigslist. Know your source. And know that if you try to buy 1986 Fleer Michael Jordans or 1952 Topps Mickey Mantles for a mere fraction of their value, that there's a very good chance they're not legitimate, the holder and flip notwithstanding.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ergoism

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

Don't know if the slab has been compromised but that is a awesome 1952 Bowman Bill Werle missing the W error. I have one only not that nice.

[ullmandds]

those are some scary modern fakes!

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

those are some scary modern fakes!

Who says they are fakes? They could very well be legitimate cards that are either 8s or trimmed.

[bbcemporium]

For reference, here are Schmidt and Robinson comparisons.

Fake:


Authentic (I think):


Fake:


Authentic (I think):

[MW1]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Don't know if the slab has been compromised but that is a awesome 1952 Bowman Bill Werle missing the W error. I have one only not that nice.

Thanks Ben. Evan was being a wiseguy in his post. I submitted the Werle myself. It's legitimate.