Joe Orlando is lying fakes flips look real..

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by MW1

Why would I purchase a 1986 Topps Steve Young or an o/c "PSA 9" 1960 Topps Yastrzemski at market value?

Fair enough. For argument's sake, say you are in the market for an 86 Topps Steve Young.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

Fair enough. For argument's sake, say you are in the market for an 86 Topps Steve Young.

Let's be reasonable here. Some guy in Mexico is not going to spend the money necessary to make identical PSA holders and then put 1986 Topps Steve Young cards inside.

You really have no idea what it costs a company like Beckett, PSA, or SGC to have its holders fabricated, do you?

[MattyC]

I humbly submit that whether the slabs are real or fake is kind of moot in the face of how good they look at first glance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I humbly submit that whether the slabs are real or fake is kind of moot in the face of how good they look at first glance.

Agree. I am not seeing any major red flags on the slabs. Lots of ones i knqw are legit because i submitted myself have little stuff on the edges or spots of frosting. Mike may have a trained eye the rest of us dont but they sure as heck dont look like obvious reseals to me. Ps where did wiwag get its slabs i forget now.

[itjclarke]

Also curious, do all parties involved (original owner/seller, buyer, AH) in the Mantle CSA sale (referred to in an earlier post) know about this? And if so, have they confirmed the card to be fake?

If true, this is really bothersome, and more or less invalidates PSA's bullet about buying from known/reputable sellers. The last thing I want to worry about when bidding a reputable AH is whether the card and holder are compromised and/or fake. If this scam is legit, and these are good enough to get past trained eyes and several days at public auction, maybe it's time to start worrying?

[bbcemporium]

Definitely concerning to see the crook is perfecting his art.

Look at this example of the fake Bird/Johnson rookie



Here is the scan of the legitimate example. Notice the perforation alignment between the two cards:



It looks like the fake example was recently sold via an eBay auction. Here is the scan from the auction. The seller either purposely or accidentally didn't include the full holder in the scan. Notice how the perforation alignment matches the fake:



Example number 2 - Here is a scan of the fake Gary Carter rookie



Here is a scan of the legitimate version, notice the spot or break in the black line under the word Giants:



Here is a Probstein auction scan of the legitimate version:



Here is another Probstein auction scan of the fake version:



Regardless of whether the crook is fabricating his own cases or reusing PSA cases, the vast majority of collectors are unable to spot these. Buying from reputable dealers and avoiding cards at 60% value is good advice, but definitely not error-proof, as these cards are making their way into legitimate venues.

[MW1]

bbcemporium,

Thank you for posting the comparisons. It seems obvious to me that the small security tabs or "nubs" are popped/cloudy on the holders that have been cracked and clear on the holders that are legitimately sealed by PSA. I hope others can see this.

[bbcemporium]

Yes, you can see this clearly on the nubs directly under the flip.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MW1

bbcemporium,

Thank you for posting the comparisons. It seems obvious to me that the small security tabs or "nubs" are popped/cloudy on the holders that have been cracked and clear on the holders that are legitimately sealed by PSA. I hope others can see this.

On the carter yes not so much on others like schmidt 10.

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by MW1

Let's be reasonable here. Some guy in Mexico is not going to spend the money necessary to make identical PSA holders and then put 1986 Topps Steve Young cards inside.

You really have no idea what it costs a company like Beckett, PSA, or SGC to have its holders fabricated, do you?

An 86 Topps Steve Young 10 is a POP 4 and the Jerry Rice in 10 is a POP 49. It's a substantial card and would be well worth the scam.

Maybe you know the answer and can provide that to us. but let's assume that the cost of a holder is equal to the price of having a card reholdered. Hell, let's assume that it costs $50 to have a holder made. It would still be worth it for "some guy in mexico" to spend the money necessary when he is selling his cards for 5, 10, 20+ thousand. I'm bewildered why you feel so strongly about the holders being original. I'm merely sharing information that I have. These fakes are out there, they are good, and whether or not they are original, they have very little to NO frosting at all.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

Hell, let's assume that it costs $50 to have a holder made.

You're going to have both halves of a PSA holder fabricated for $50 per unit? Try a starting cost of $50,000 just to have the molds created and a basic prototype made. If you want it exact, it would be more. Much more. And none of this takes into account what an initial minimum order might cost.

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by MW1

You're going to have both halves of a PSA holder fabricated for $50 per unit? Try a starting cost of $50,000 just to have the molds created and a basic prototype made. If you want it exact, it would be more. Much more. And none of this takes into account what an initial minimum order might cost.

If that's the cost in America, I'm sure it's a fraction of that in Mexico and China. Even at 50k he could afford it, he's made that in a days worth of scamming.
I'll end this here, there's really no point in arguing where these slabs came from. The fakes are good and that's that.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by ergoism

If that's the cost in America, I'm sure it's a fraction of that in Mexico and China. Even at 50k he could afford it, he's made that in a days worth of scamming.
I'll end this here, there's really no point in arguing where these slabs came from. The fakes are good and that's that.

No. The $50,000 is to have it done in China, per your example/claim. Further refinements of the prototype, manufacturing, plus the initial order could easily run $250k if you wanted an exact holder. And even then, it might not be the same.

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.

What may seem like a very basic approach is the importance of knowing the seller. It is not uncommon for collectibles to be valued at five, six or even seven-figure levels in some cases. If you were buying a watch for $5,000, would you purchase it from a company or someone you didn't recognize or know? If not, the first prudent step would be asking for good references. The same approach should be used in the collectibles market. It is imperative that you find a reputable dealer or auction house to buy from. Remember, it is your money.

If you are directly solicited by a person or company with whom you have no prior dealings or relationship, you should approach the offer with caution, particularly if such an offer is coupled with a deal that seems too good to be true. These are warning signs. Ironically, the lure of a quick profit often overrides one's common sense. Don't let this happen to you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

No. The $50,000 is to have it done in China, per your example/claim. Further refinements of the prototype, manufacturing, plus the initial order could easily run $250k if you wanted an exact holder. And even then, it might not be the same.

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.

What may seem like a very basic approach is the importance of knowing the seller. It is not uncommon for collectibles to be valued at five, six or even seven-figure levels in some cases. If you were buying a watch for $5,000, would you purchase it from a company or someone you didn't recognize or know? If not, the first prudent step would be asking for good references. The same approach should be used in the collectibles market. It is imperative that you find a reputable dealer or auction house to buy from. Remember, it is your money.

If you are directly solicited by a person or company with whom you have no prior dealings or relationship, you should approach the offer with caution, particularly if such an offer is coupled with a deal that seems too good to be true. These are warning signs. Ironically, the lure of a quick profit often overrides one's common sense. Don't let this happen to you.

Mike- I assume you have spoken to the Secret Service and the Dept of Homeland Security about this scammer allegedly in Mexico? I am sure you know there has been an investigation going on for years now. Whether he is cracking and resealing slabs or having them fabricated, I am not sure, but he is good. Hopefully the new holders from PSA and SGC will prevent him from doing his trade.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by MW1

PSA puts together some very good guidelines that can virtually eliminate these types of scams. From their website:

One way the PSA holder may show tampering is what is commonly referred to as "frosting" along the edges where the clear plastic starts to exhibit a cloudy appearance. In some cases, you can actually see minor fractures or cracks in the plastic as a result of the violation. This occurs when the sonic weld is broken and can be seen in various degrees.
[/I]

I'll check when I get home, but I think many if not a majority of my PSA holders show signs of frosting.. some even have little micro-cracks. I think the many of these are legit beyond a doubt, but presumably have picked up these traits due to wear and tear.

I've never cracked a PSA holder, so don't know if the frosting on a compromised holder is so much different than the frosting I've seen on mine. Would love to see all these holders side by side and in hand at some point (real, real with frosting, poorly cracked lots of frosting, well cracked minimal frosting, fake, etc).

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by MW1

Again, I'll ask the question--what evidence do you have that your Mexican scammer is having his own holders fabricated? Doesn't it stand to reason that if he has this much money to spend, he probably would go into a legitimate business rather than trying to peddle fake sports cards to a network of hapless Craigslist sellers?

He told me they were fabricated. He may be lying, I really don't care at this point. I've had multiple conversations at length with the Secret Service about this guy. My knowledge of him and his scams runs much deeper than trying to determine whether or not it would make sense for him to do what he does. If someone has scammed the hobby for 2 or 3 million dollars and it's all in cash in Mexico, I'm not sure where he would start his legitimate business.

Here's my bottom line:
If I posted the original pictures with an equal number of legitimate scans, I highly doubt anyone would be able to tell which cards were real/fake strictly based on the appearance of the slabs.

I see frosting on legitimate slabs all the time. Look at the scans below, are any of these cards compromised?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by ergoism

These fakes are out there, they are good, and whether or not they are original, they have very little to NO frosting at all.

Thanks for posting this Evan, I hope you haven't been dissuaded from sharing any more info you may have. The above is the key point to me. I can't tell the difference between these slabs.

It's been pointed out in this thread that there are obvious signs these flips have been compromised, if so I'd love to know what they are.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Thanks for posting this Evan, I hope you haven't been dissuaded from sharing any more info you may have. The above is the key point to me. I can't tell the difference between these slabs.

It's been pointed out in this thread that there are obvious signs these flips have been compromised, if so I'd love to know what they are.

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by MW1

... if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

why is this?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

why is this?

Not many fakes, from this source, come from this time period.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MW1

There really is nothing more nefarious transpiring here than PSA holders being opened and fake flips/cards being inserted. Use your powers of observation. Look carefully at the edges of the holder. Look at the contact points. Look at the four small slots that become cloudy when the holder is pried apart. Look at the edges where a sharp object has initially been inserted. The signs are all there. If you still don't see signs of tampering, look at the card itself. And if that doesn't work, pay close attention to the price. If it's 60% or less of retail and you're buying a PSA 10 or low population PSA 9, it's almost certainly a scam. Finally, if you collect pre-WWII cards, none of this likely applies to your collection.

what if offering 85% of the price or 80%.....you really got to stop focusing on 60% of the price....everyone out to save a dollar and lots of people wll pay 80% of market price...

If you buy a PSA graded card from an auction house and it turns out to be fake is there any recourse with PSA or the AH?

[Rollingstone206]

...

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by MW1

Let's be reasonable here. Some guy in Mexico is not going to spend the money necessary to make identical PSA holders and then put 1986 Topps Steve Young cards inside.

You really have no idea what it costs a company like Beckett, PSA, or SGC to have its holders fabricated, do you?

its about 50k or a 100k to have them tooled and get a sample run.

one or two 50k cards pays for that cost.

kevin