The State of Topps?

[Rich Klein]

Jay -- I love this conversation, this will make for one/two really cool Rich's Ramblings on the Sports Collectors Daily * a valued Net 54 advertiser* site. Of course, my editor wants to me wait a while as he has plenty of my ramblings in the hopper. But I love the wild card memories and will opine on your comments as well.

Rich

[steve B]

I liked the competition too. Donruss was my favorite in 81. (Which might say a bunch about my collecting tastes)

Topps regular set has been very ordinary the last few years, And while I like them, so have Gypsy Queen and A+G . They change up just enough stuff to keep it interesting.

I think it's partly the uniform and other cards that drive the number of sets. And partly the size of the sets and Topps own ability or lack of ability at collation.
I buy almost entirely at retail now. The kids make getting to the card shop a bit of an adventure. Especially since they sell other stuff. It's hard looking at cards when you've got to chase the 3 year old who's emptying the boxes of rubber dinosaurs , pokemon keychains, and whatever else onto the floor then running to the next display.

I bought Topps base stuff in 2011 for the anniversary stuff. less in 2012, and very little in 13 and this year.
I have bought a bunch of GQ and A+G, and Bowman Platinum, a chrome ish product that's more like two small sets sold together. And Chipz and Cubi (Platinum and Cubi are an addition to the list, making an even 20)

I don't expect Chipz and cubi to be back, so maybe only 18 this year.

What happens is that I reach a point where I can buy a couple blaster boxes and only get one or two cards I need. And just about then some new product is on the shelves. If I start with the base set, it runs Base, GQ, Base serII, A+G, Platinum. Retail is only 7 main products and usually a one or two one-offs like Chipz.
That cycle runs from January/feb through late fall, and runs out just about in time for football, with some choice - If someone isn't into archives, there's another very different product available.
This year I waited for GQ, and spent more on that. Proabbly will for A+G as well.

The rest of the sets listed are the niche ones. Turkey red is online only ? I didn't know they still did stadium club, and most of the others I think are the very expensive ones with like 3 card packs that are essentially all inserts?
There's a place for those, and the stuff is nice, but they probably aren't known much outside of the hobby and probably have different customers.

I like opening day, but never see anyone buying it at retail. Not even the kids.

The days of kids spending their own money on stuff like cards are likely mostly over. And If a kid is basically just getting the folks to spring for a few packs the more expensive ones are probably more interesting. I bought my first pack in 69, none in 70. I probably wanted some other sort of candy more. same for 72. By the time competition happened I was spending my own money and had to choose which one to buy. Or since I was going to a card store- whether to buy a few packs or an old card or two. I should have bought more old stuff........

I'm bit surprised MLB hasn't leaned on Panini to get their license as well. Or does Topps have an exclusive deal? I think they used to require both. Plus player approval, and maybe the teams too?

Steve B

[Jayworld]

"The days of kids spending their own money on stuff like cards are likely mostly over. And If a kid is basically just getting the folks to spring for a few packs the more expensive ones are probably more interesting. I bought my first pack in 69, none in 70. I probably wanted some other sort of candy more. same for 72. By the time competition happened I was spending my own money and had to choose which one to buy. Or since I was going to a card store- whether to buy a few packs or an old card or two. I should have bought more old stuff........

I'm bit surprised MLB hasn't leaned on Panini to get their license as well. Or does Topps have an exclusive deal? I think they used to require both. Plus player approval, and maybe the teams too?

Steve B"

Steve - I like your quote concerning kids spending their own money. When I was really into collecting the modern stuff, I did spend my own money. Of course, going to the neighborhood 7-11 in 1977 and paying 25 cents a pack for 10 cards (and that bad stick of gum) was very affordable. I would save up and purchase 4-5 packs at a time (big deal back then). The same money today will not even buy ONE pack, and I think that is one big problem for getting kids involved in modern day cards. If you look at all the niche card areas, most are geared for adults that are either vintage collectors of tobacco or early gum cards or the like and like the novelty of opening new packs or specialty collectors who only go for the big "hits" such as the autograph cards or jersey swatches.

Personally, since I got back into collecting in the early 2000s and educated myself on the current state of baseball cards and the like, the jersey cards have never appealed to me (I trade or sell them if I get them). The signed cards have some appeal to me, as I am also an autograph collector (going on 30+ years now). Still, the pricing is so outrageous. Why spend $80+ on a new box of cards to maybe get one vintage hit (think Topps T206 or Upper Deck Goudey) when you can use that same $80 and actually purchase, in lower condition, several vintage cards?

From what I understand, there are two licenses that card companies spend big dollars on; the MLB license, which allows companies to depict team logos, etc., and the MLBPA license, which allows companies to produce cards of players. Panini/Donuss has the MLBPA license, and Topps has both.

Oh, and I bought all three sets in 1981 when they came out, more of a "that's cool, someone else besides Topps" kind of mentality. For 1982-1983, I only bought Donruss and Topps, and in 1984, I only bought the Donruss set, and then quit collecting until the early 2000s. I thought Donruss had a good product, especially with the painted Perez cards and the clean fronts. That's what attracted me back to the 2014 Donruss….

[steve B]

Yes, the price of a pack has gone up a lot even compared to other stuff.

Gas - .62/gallon
Stamp - .13
gallon of milk - 1.68
Pack of cards -.15

Now, Gas 3.55 =5.72x
stamp .49 = 3.76x
Milk $3-4 = @2x
Pack of cards (Topps base wax pack only) 2.00 = 13.3x

Of course I've heard my nephews and friends kids talk about the payoff from the tooth fairy- I thought I did well at .50 for the first one, which had to be pulled. Now I think they say it's around $5!

I'm on the fence about the memorabilia cards. I like the occasional signed ones, but don't collect many autographs. I was really into signature rookies, and sort of still pursue them. Any I find in the dollar box are usually bought.
Yes, Wildcard, Signature rookies, Edge .............I'm a harbinger of doom for a card company. I'm surprised Topps is still around.

Some uniform cards are ok. I don't like the ones with old stuff on them, but current players it doesn't bother me. I figure the uniforms are worn once and then sold. I got a Mark Cuban "suit card" from A+G last year. Pretty cool since I'm a fan of shark tank.

If I buy something like Topps 206 or Goudey, it's for the set itself. Any old card I'd get would be just a bonus. (And a dilemma, which set would I put it with??)

I liked the design of some of the 80's Donruss too. 81, and 84 especially. I tend more towards good design even if it's not as clean and modern. And I'm a total sucker for over the top ornate stuff. If I had the bucks I'd collect Ramlys. As it is I have to settle for modern crazy stuff - Make a die cut refracting signed set that's been aged over a Fenway sausage vendors cart flame and has bits of fenway green lead paint embedded and I'm there. Unless it's crazy expensive or just plain ugly - Over the top stuff is hard to do well.

Maybe I'll give the Donruss a try. I've spent on sillier things.

Steve B

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Jayworld

"The days of kids spending their own money on stuff like cards are likely mostly over. And If a kid is basically just getting the folks to spring for a few packs the more expensive ones are probably more interesting. I bought my first pack in 69, none in 70. I probably wanted some other sort of candy more. same for 72. By the time competition happened I was spending my own money and had to choose which one to buy. Or since I was going to a card store- whether to buy a few packs or an old card or two. I should have bought more old stuff........

I'm bit surprised MLB hasn't leaned on Panini to get their license as well. Or does Topps have an exclusive deal? I think they used to require both. Plus player approval, and maybe the teams too?

Steve B"

Steve - I like your quote concerning kids spending their own money. When I was really into collecting the modern stuff, I did spend my own money. Of course, going to the neighborhood 7-11 in 1977 and paying 25 cents a pack for 10 cards (and that bad stick of gum) was very affordable. I would save up and purchase 4-5 packs at a time (big deal back then). The same money today will not even buy ONE pack, and I think that is one big problem for getting kids involved in modern day cards. If you look at all the niche card areas, most are geared for adults that are either vintage collectors of tobacco or early gum cards or the like and like the novelty of opening new packs or specialty collectors who only go for the big "hits" such as the autograph cards or jersey swatches.

Personally, since I got back into collecting in the early 2000s and educated myself on the current state of baseball cards and the like, the jersey cards have never appealed to me (I trade or sell them if I get them). The signed cards have some appeal to me, as I am also an autograph collector (going on 30+ years now). Still, the pricing is so outrageous. Why spend $80+ on a new box of cards to maybe get one vintage hit (think Topps T206 or Upper Deck Goudey) when you can use that same $80 and actually purchase, in lower condition, several vintage cards?

From what I understand, there are two licenses that card companies spend big dollars on; the MLB license, which allows companies to depict team logos, etc., and the MLBPA license, which allows companies to produce cards of players. Panini/Donuss has the MLBPA license, and Topps has both.

Oh, and I bought all three sets in 1981 when they came out, more of a "that's cool, someone else besides Topps" kind of mentality. For 1982-1983, I only bought Donruss and Topps, and in 1984, I only bought the Donruss set, and then quit collecting until the early 2000s. I thought Donruss had a good product, especially with the painted Perez cards and the clean fronts. That's what attracted me back to the 2014 Donruss….

I'll respond in more detail later since I am at work but Topps has the MLB exclusive until 2020. Both Panini and Upper Deck do hve MLBPA license and Panini also has a Hall of Fame license. At the moment, everyone is satisifed with this arrangement.

And in 2004, before Fleer went out of business and the Panini was forced aside after 2005, there were about 90+ releases that year. One of the reasons MLB and MLBPA came up with their agreement at that time was to give products more time to breathe.

Topps got an exclusive beginning in 2010 and I'd wager they are working with MLB and MLBPA on a measured growth policy which enables them to print but not flood. Compared to 90, 25 is fine. AND Jay S. as an FYI, there are dealers such as Al at Triple Cards who believe it or not would rather go back to 90 a year in baseball as his customers love to churn product.

RIch

[Jayworld]

Rich:
Yes, I agree that 25-30 products a year doesn't touch the 90 products in the over-saturated 90s, but I still think 25 products a years is WAY to much, especially since it seems (perception, perhaps not reality) that Topps still puts out quantity over quality…. Also, the 90+ releases were by all companies in the business at that time, correct (Topps, FLeer, Donruss, Upper Deck, and their subsidiaries Leaf, etc.)? With Topps churning 25 products this year, and Panini doing 5-10, and a few others out there, we still are at 40-50 different products…

The designs on Topps cards have not been really good in several years, and competition can improve that. Topps put out some great, clean designs in the late 1960s, early-to-mid 1970s, and started to slip some prior to Donruss and Fleer entering the market, and things picked up for a while (design wise). As a collector (and a designer for over 25 years), I thought that Fleer produced some nice, clean, well-designed cards in the 1983-86 period, with the team logo on the front rather than the team name. Topps overdid it in 1985 with both the logo and name. Several would disagree with me, I think, but the Topps set from 1976 is very clean and graphically interesting with the position of the ball player graphic on each card. You just don't see that anymore. Lots of embossing and metallic coats and inks that are often times hard to read.

You are right; Al at Triple Cards thinks that the "slowdown" in products has hurt his business, but then he told me he has a few customers that come in and drop over $5 grand a pop on new product (mostly Bowman Chrome). WOW.

So you think today's average modern collector collects for the "hits" (jersey, autograph, limited printing, etc.) in order to flip and make a profit (investment - which I have no problem with) or are more collectors right now into building sets?

I was a set collector, that's what got me into baseball cards and spurred my interest, and I think that set building has all-but-vanished is why I rarely collect or buy modern product. Heck, even at $1.99 a pack, that's too expensive for me to try to build a set…. and I know I'm probably in the minority on that.

[Rich Klein]

Jay -- I'm at work so don't have a lot of time -- but I referernced this conversation in my Gypsy QUeen review and then will have more to say later.

Let's just say, there is a mix but we have a slient majority of people like you and a noisy bunch of peoiple who want hits;

And I know there is not a great deal of "value" but Opening Day provided a nice mix of minor hits and a collectible set at about $1 per pack. I got more value out of my box of that then I do from some boxes which sell for a significant multiple of that.

Rich

[Jayworld]

Thanks, Rich. Guess Opening Day could be an alternative for modern set building….will do some research on that.