The State of Topps?

[steve B]

Production is nowhere near what it was in the early-mid 90's.

Maybe more sets from Topps, but they're not overproduced, and a few of them are very niche products.

I haven't looked at the Donruss stuff this year, but from the photos that are online with the reviews it's just rehashing the 80's designs just like archives and heritage. (I seldom buy those but they are popular)

Panini wasn't that far behind last year, they had nine sets just in baseball. And about that many for basketball football and hockey too.
And somehow they've got Beckett the company pushing "unlicensed stuff is fake and worthless" to give them a glowing review with only a MLBPA license. That's less than wild card had with the NFL when a licensing dispute put them out of Beckett and out of business.

I've bought a few packs, and somehow their stuff just does nothing for me. The inserts are nice, but the rest just seem cheap.

And I don't like that they avidly promote the jersey/bat/whatever cards here but don't make them for any of their other worldwide markets.

I was a fan of a lot of Donruss products, but just can't get excited about them as a Panini brand

Steve B

[ALR-bishop]

Up until 1994 I collected anything listed for Topps in SCD. After 1994, when the great proliferation started, I bought only the regular set and any update, just to keep the run going. But while all my sets to 94 are in binders, the 94-2013 sets are still in factory boxes. Starting in 2001 I started the run of Topps Heritage sets, and have then all in binders with any updates. I do like the Heritage sets

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by steve B

Production is nowhere near what it was in the early-mid 90's.

Maybe more sets from Topps, but they're not overproduced, and a few of them are very niche products.

I haven't looked at the Donruss stuff this year, but from the photos that are online with the reviews it's just rehashing the 80's designs just like archives and heritage. (I seldom buy those but they are popular)

Panini wasn't that far behind last year, they had nine sets just in baseball. And about that many for basketball football and hockey too.
And somehow they've got Beckett the company pushing "unlicensed stuff is fake and worthless" to give them a glowing review with only a MLBPA license. That's less than wild card had with the NFL when a licensing dispute put them out of Beckett and out of business.

I've bought a few packs, and somehow their stuff just does nothing for me. The inserts are nice, but the rest just seem cheap.

And I don't like that they avidly promote the jersey/bat/whatever cards here but don't make them for any of their other worldwide markets.

I was a fan of a lot of Donruss products, but just can't get excited about them as a Panini brand

Steve B

Seve -- Wild Card is still listed in the Beckett on-line price guide. I searched for 1991 wild card Favre and found this link.

http://www.beckett.com/search/?term=...1&tmm=extended

There were many reasons Wild Card lost their license but all their 91-93 cards are still listed in the On-Line Price Guide. And if Wild Card is no longer in a print Beckett publication, I would wager that is because the product is too thinly traded and/or almost no one cares. Remember there was a proliferation of over produced issues at that time. I was there at Beckett for the Wild Card problems -- and let me tell you, I'd rather we'd have pulled those cards in 1993 from our listings and just left them in our annual guides then.

And as for the MLBPA deisgnation. Since Panini does have that, you can't really say the cards are not licensed. They are not licensed by MLB but the MLBPA designation counts for quite a bit, especially if there are signed cards in the product. Thus why shouldn't Beckett price and review those cards.

When Beckett says unlicensed that refers more towards the Broder type issues of the 1980's or other issues with NO proper licensing.

Beckett may do (and have done) plenty of things wrong over the years but these two cases are not them. Both of these issues you bring up were done correctly by Beckett.

Regards
Rich

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Seve -- Wild Card is still listed in the Beckett on-line price guide. I searched for 1991 wild card Favre and found this link.

http://www.beckett.com/search/?term=...1&tmm=extended

There were many reasons Wild Card lost their license but all their 91-93 cards are still listed in the On-Line Price Guide. And if Wild Card is no longer in a print Beckett publication, I would wager that is because the product is too thinly traded and/or almost no one cares. Remember there was a proliferation of over produced issues at that time. I was there at Beckett for the Wild Card problems -- and let me tell you, I'd rather we'd have pulled those cards in 1993 from our listings and just left them in our annual guides then.

And as for the MLBPA deisgnation. Since Panini does have that, you can't really say the cards are not licensed. They are not licensed by MLB but the MLBPA designation counts for quite a bit, especially if there are signed cards in the product. Thus why shouldn't Beckett price and review those cards.

When Beckett says unlicensed that refers more towards the Broder type issues of the 1980's or other issues with NO proper licensing.

Beckett may do (and have done) plenty of things wrong over the years but these two cases are not them. Both of these issues you bring up were done correctly by Beckett.

Regards
Rich

Interesting that they're in the online guide. I haven't seen the online stuff at all.
They had a deal where if you signed up for the website you got a free month of online price guide. I joined, looked at the web site for a couple months, emailed a couple times about the free month trial, --Nothing. Not even a response saying I'd missed a code or something and it had expired.

If I remember correctly it was the superchrome rookies that caused the whole licensing issue for Wild Card? And that the set was licensed in a way but the dispute was that they were limited to a certain number of sets and superchrome rookies was in a gray area. WC thought it was ok because since it included High series cards it was an extension of that set. NFL considered it new because of how it was marketed. (And was probably right)

I thought that set had been dropped, while the others which were ok remained. I'd have to check the old issues I have around.
You probably recall it better having been there, so I'll consider myself corrected.

I totally understand them being dropped currently. With all the new stuff there's limited space and a thinly traded set that's from more than a decade ago really doesn't rate the space.


We'll have to disagree about the broders. But that's a topic for another thread.

Steve B

[Jayworld]

Steve:
You do bring up good points, especially concerning your statement that current cards are not overproduced in the same numbers like the 1990s. I do agree with that whole-heartedly.

I guess my "complaint" is that there still is TOO many products out there, and yes, I do realize that some of it is a very specialized market.

I was speaking with the local card shop owner recently, and he has friends and good ties with Panini, and he stated that as of now, Panini has no interest in pursuing a MLB license and are fine with just the MLBPA license. Shame, as I'd like to see some real competition to Topps. I thought the Fleer sets of 1983, 1984 and the Donruss sets of 1983-84-85 to be so much better than the Topps designs of those same years, and I thought competition was wonderful (of course, prior to the mass produced years, and now the glut of product and autograph/uniform Pulls era)

Topps seems to have a pretty loyal following still with their "base" cards (I think the designs are too similar in the past 3-4 years and thus boring), and especially the Heritage sets. I actually have purchased a few packs of the Archives sets of the past two years, mostly because:
1. They depict older players and those players I grew up with in the 1970s and early 1980s
2. The card designs are from eras that I actually collected modern baseball cards, so I can wax nostalgic with them

Since there are some "loose" regulations out there, such as Rookie designated cards now, as well as how many different products a company can produce (really I see no difference in this), I would love to see something like:

– Each company can produce only four sets: base (affordable), mid-tier, and high end, as well as a "wild card" set (think Topps Heritage)
– Prices would be more relevant to attract younger kids to our hobby. My goodness, outside of the Topps Opening Day at 99 cents, packs are generally $2.99 and up for 6-8 cards. That's expensive, even for set builders, in my book

[Rich Klein]

Jay -- I love this conversation, this will make for one/two really cool Rich's Ramblings on the Sports Collectors Daily * a valued Net 54 advertiser* site. Of course, my editor wants to me wait a while as he has plenty of my ramblings in the hopper. But I love the wild card memories and will opine on your comments as well.

Rich

[steve B]

I liked the competition too. Donruss was my favorite in 81. (Which might say a bunch about my collecting tastes)

Topps regular set has been very ordinary the last few years, And while I like them, so have Gypsy Queen and A+G . They change up just enough stuff to keep it interesting.

I think it's partly the uniform and other cards that drive the number of sets. And partly the size of the sets and Topps own ability or lack of ability at collation.
I buy almost entirely at retail now. The kids make getting to the card shop a bit of an adventure. Especially since they sell other stuff. It's hard looking at cards when you've got to chase the 3 year old who's emptying the boxes of rubber dinosaurs , pokemon keychains, and whatever else onto the floor then running to the next display.

I bought Topps base stuff in 2011 for the anniversary stuff. less in 2012, and very little in 13 and this year.
I have bought a bunch of GQ and A+G, and Bowman Platinum, a chrome ish product that's more like two small sets sold together. And Chipz and Cubi (Platinum and Cubi are an addition to the list, making an even 20)

I don't expect Chipz and cubi to be back, so maybe only 18 this year.

What happens is that I reach a point where I can buy a couple blaster boxes and only get one or two cards I need. And just about then some new product is on the shelves. If I start with the base set, it runs Base, GQ, Base serII, A+G, Platinum. Retail is only 7 main products and usually a one or two one-offs like Chipz.
That cycle runs from January/feb through late fall, and runs out just about in time for football, with some choice - If someone isn't into archives, there's another very different product available.
This year I waited for GQ, and spent more on that. Proabbly will for A+G as well.

The rest of the sets listed are the niche ones. Turkey red is online only ? I didn't know they still did stadium club, and most of the others I think are the very expensive ones with like 3 card packs that are essentially all inserts?
There's a place for those, and the stuff is nice, but they probably aren't known much outside of the hobby and probably have different customers.

I like opening day, but never see anyone buying it at retail. Not even the kids.

The days of kids spending their own money on stuff like cards are likely mostly over. And If a kid is basically just getting the folks to spring for a few packs the more expensive ones are probably more interesting. I bought my first pack in 69, none in 70. I probably wanted some other sort of candy more. same for 72. By the time competition happened I was spending my own money and had to choose which one to buy. Or since I was going to a card store- whether to buy a few packs or an old card or two. I should have bought more old stuff........

I'm bit surprised MLB hasn't leaned on Panini to get their license as well. Or does Topps have an exclusive deal? I think they used to require both. Plus player approval, and maybe the teams too?

Steve B

[Jayworld]

"The days of kids spending their own money on stuff like cards are likely mostly over. And If a kid is basically just getting the folks to spring for a few packs the more expensive ones are probably more interesting. I bought my first pack in 69, none in 70. I probably wanted some other sort of candy more. same for 72. By the time competition happened I was spending my own money and had to choose which one to buy. Or since I was going to a card store- whether to buy a few packs or an old card or two. I should have bought more old stuff........

I'm bit surprised MLB hasn't leaned on Panini to get their license as well. Or does Topps have an exclusive deal? I think they used to require both. Plus player approval, and maybe the teams too?

Steve B"

Steve - I like your quote concerning kids spending their own money. When I was really into collecting the modern stuff, I did spend my own money. Of course, going to the neighborhood 7-11 in 1977 and paying 25 cents a pack for 10 cards (and that bad stick of gum) was very affordable. I would save up and purchase 4-5 packs at a time (big deal back then). The same money today will not even buy ONE pack, and I think that is one big problem for getting kids involved in modern day cards. If you look at all the niche card areas, most are geared for adults that are either vintage collectors of tobacco or early gum cards or the like and like the novelty of opening new packs or specialty collectors who only go for the big "hits" such as the autograph cards or jersey swatches.

Personally, since I got back into collecting in the early 2000s and educated myself on the current state of baseball cards and the like, the jersey cards have never appealed to me (I trade or sell them if I get them). The signed cards have some appeal to me, as I am also an autograph collector (going on 30+ years now). Still, the pricing is so outrageous. Why spend $80+ on a new box of cards to maybe get one vintage hit (think Topps T206 or Upper Deck Goudey) when you can use that same $80 and actually purchase, in lower condition, several vintage cards?

From what I understand, there are two licenses that card companies spend big dollars on; the MLB license, which allows companies to depict team logos, etc., and the MLBPA license, which allows companies to produce cards of players. Panini/Donuss has the MLBPA license, and Topps has both.

Oh, and I bought all three sets in 1981 when they came out, more of a "that's cool, someone else besides Topps" kind of mentality. For 1982-1983, I only bought Donruss and Topps, and in 1984, I only bought the Donruss set, and then quit collecting until the early 2000s. I thought Donruss had a good product, especially with the painted Perez cards and the clean fronts. That's what attracted me back to the 2014 Donruss….