Is it still possible to build a pre-war collection while avoiding TPGs altogether?

[Peter_Spaeth]

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

Yes and this is why this issue is so coveted!

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Daniel Paul" LOL. Damn he was good though. Set the bar for a whole generation of card doctors.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The more frightening part of VBCC 7 (I think it was a separate article) was the interview about card doctoring.

Yup, good memory, Peter. It's the article directly following the one about the TPGs. The article name is "True and Open Card Restoration: An Idea Whose Time Has Come?" I haven't started it yet, but looking at the examples of cards restored by this person, I think "frightening" is an apropos description.

This magazine is proving to be well worth the $17.98. Between V&CBC and Old Cardboard's back issues, I have a lot of great reading to look forward to.

[MattyC]

I don't really see the grading companies selling the cards they slab these days. I definitely would not feel just using a nearly 20 year old article as the basis to decry grading as a whole. That said, it is enlightening stuff and raises valuable questions, for sure. I personally don't see the sheer act of grading (and subsequent increase in value) as price manipulation. I wonder why one would get "really angry" at the sheer existence of a TPG? Cards shouldn't make any collector angry; if they ever made me really angry, then it's time for me to find a new hobby That advertisement strikes me as a company hawking their wares and making a sales pitch; no surprises there.

One can't have it both ways; on the one hand those cards referenced in the advert would only have cost a collector of raw a mere $290. Whereas slabbed they cost the collector of slabbed much more. Are they worth more cash slabbed because of the collectors in that market and what they are willing to pay? Sure. But it seems to me the raw collector there has the edge-- he could have bought and owned the raw, enjoyed them, and if ready to ever sell, had them graded. Every slabbed card, after all, began as a raw card. Now if the raw collector wants that card that has been slabbed and is expecting to pay a raw price, well, as Austin powers would say, 'That train has sailed.' The card has been converted from raw to slabbed and if it was that nice to become a very pricey card, good for whoever found it raw and first had it graded.

The way I see it, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything they don't want. The fact is that buyers clearly feel more comfortable with some type of third-party standard in place. There are guys that swear by and agree no matter what with that standard, and there are guys that in effect grade the graders, ponying up only when a card is accurately or under graded (I fall in the latter category).

If someone is comfortable buying raw and has the eye to detect trimming and the like, I've seen great amounts of raw available and some really nice, affable, knowledgable dealers of raw at shows. So I'm sure it is quite possible. It's all about enjoyment and what gives one pleasure.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by MattyC

If someone is comfortable buying raw and has the eye to detect trimming and the like, I've seen great amounts of raw available and some really nice, affable, knowledgeable dealers of raw at shows. So I'm sure it is quite possible. It's all about enjoyment and what gives one pleasure.

To expand on this, it's very possible to collect only raw, but not if on-line is your primary source of acquisition. Tons of nice raw stuff at good shows, sometimes 80%+ of the room....but anyone selling on-line is going to get their stuff slabbed - the online buyers want it, and they typically sell for more.

[Luke]

Bill,

I agree with your general stance on TPG. I just think they are a necesary evil in this day and age and with so many sales occuring online. Also, I'm a bit of a hypocrite because there are certain situations where I would prefer to buy a slabbed card.
If you don't already, you should subscribe to Mark Macrae's email list. He dislikes grading companies and only deals in raw. He has a large inventory and is a good guy.

[kmac32]

Up to 100 cards of the 121 of my raw W572 strip card set. The last 2 cards I added were in slabs. Was trying to do the set by purchasing only raw cards but to do so was next to inpossible.

[kamikidEFFL]

First off this is a pretty great thread. Secondly, I have to say that it's def possible to build a set not using TPG. I feel it would possibly hurt the value a little bit. I myself prefer to have the cards graded but some folks don't. It's interesting to see but most older vintage does seen to be graded simply the fact that the card holds a better value when graded and it shows authenticity. We all know there are many fakes out there even graded ones but still some people feel safer building a set that's graded. I think come near the future it will be harder n harder to find raw cards. It could take much longer to find higher graded ones that have yet to be sent to a TPG.

[japhi]

I actually think TPG's offer great opportunities for guys that collect raw. There are tons of cards sitting in slabs that sell for less than the same or worse card raw.

The submitter thought he had a 7, got a 5, and the guy that collects raw pays ex money for a card that looks NM. The only looser in this deal is the guy that submitted the card hoping for a 7.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I definitely would not feel just using a nearly 20 year old article as the basis to decry grading as a whole.

Many of the points made in the article are as valid today as they were when the magazine was published.

Doug

[JollyElm]

It won't be long until the card companies start slabbing the cards before putting them into packs. It's definitely on the horizon.

[glynparson]

They were slabbing cards and putting in packs back around 2000. You are late to the game sir. I also do not see PSA as price manipulation, shilling yes, simply slab bing not even close. Psa advertising crazy prices for their cards is just good business, after all that's what they are a business. To answer the original question it depends, not if you want certain cards or issues but if you just wanted nicer raw and were not overly focused yes you could still build a decent raw collection. I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

[Centauri]

I recently switched from coins to cardboard after not touching baseball cards for 15 years or so. Grading is essential in the coin hobby because counterfeiting and alterations are prevalent. Certain coins like a bust dollar will have 10 fakes for every real one. Old baseball cards are also easy enough to fake.

At least out here in Utah, there really is no way to build a quality prewar collection without buying on-line - and that makes the slab a necessity. You can't hold the card in your hand, and difficult to judge just from a photo. If you really don't like it, buy the card and remove from the holder.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

Absolutely +1.

Cheers,
Blair

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glynparson

They were slabbing cards and putting in packs back around 2000. You are late to the game sir. I also do not see PSA as price manipulation, shilling yes, simply slab bing not even close. Psa advertising crazy prices for their cards is just good business, after all that's what they are a business. To answer the original question it depends, not if you want certain cards or issues but if you just wanted nicer raw and were not overly focused yes you could still build a decent raw collection. I do feel there would be more altered cards in the average nice raw card collection than would be in holders. I know I have seen collections of many people over the years that ripped grading. All too frequently there collections were not as high end as they thought and very often had a number of trimmed or worse cards in the collection.

This is right on, and was indeed a common scenario in the early to mid '90's. As Tony Galovich used to say as a sales pitch in his mailings,a card buyer spent 400% of high book and got the card of his dreams (before grading began to police putting cards through a paper press, slightly enlarging them, and then trimming them down to proper size)! However, when the hobby learned to examine the edges under magnification, this process became readily detectable, and a number of dealers (not Galovich) specializing in such shenanigans were forced out of business. I remember going to the regional shows at Rosemont in the Chicago area in the 1990's, and many dealers were looking at the edges of raw cards with a high-powered loupe before they would even offer to buy them, just as I was when purchasing raw after grading had come in. If you weren't careful, you could easily get a trimmed card that was properly sized, and appeared NMt-Mt or better. It did indeed turn out that a number of these "dream cards," which were gem mint to the naked eye, had been altered and rendered ungradeable, beyond "authentic."

IMHO, stick with graded cards for more expensive purchases. Anywhere there is money to be made without a lot of work, there will be a scam artist lurking in the shadows.

Highest regards,

Larry