assault weapon ban again

vintagetoppsguy · #1 04-10-2014, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

I don't agree with the "person A will use weapon B if they don't have a gun". Just not true.

Then you just got proven wrong yesterday in Pennsylvania.

When someone wants to hurt/kill others, they will use any means they can.

Runscott · #2 04-10-2014, 11:18 AM

Correct. If you find one example that supports your point, then it is true in all cases. There is a crazy toddler at the table next to me, attempting to destroy everything in sight. I am intelligent enough to reach the conclusion that all toddlers will behave in exactly the same way, which is why I avoid them.

vintagetoppsguy · #3 04-10-2014, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Correct. If you find one example that supports your point, then it is true in all cases. There is a crazy toddler at the table next to me, attempting to destroy everything in sight. I am intelligent enough to reach the conclusion that all toddlers will behave in exactly the same way, which is why I avoid them.

Well, let me put it back in your court. How many examples does it take to prove a point?

And if that toddler is annoying you too much, go tell your teacher. If that don't work, change daycares.

Runscott · #4 04-10-2014, 02:55 PM

David, it's still in your court. You made a blanket statement, based on a single incident, in response to Tony. I happen to agree with him, but I understand the guns argument. I began avoiding these discussions when a poster stated that he wanted to carry guns around in order to protect himself and others. I'm really okay with the police department - not perfect, but better than Net54 members trying to do the job.

Unfortunately, the toddlers were at the coffee shop where I go to work and do research, and there aren't many alternatives out here.

drcy · #5 04-13-2014, 11:26 PM

Most shooters are male. Second biggest statistical connection to gun violence is most probably alcohol.

So pro gun people who are men who like to drink alcohol should be careful about using statistics and demographics to decide who should be allowed to own guns.

jhs5120 · #6 04-11-2014, 09:21 AM

.

vintagetoppsguy · #7 04-11-2014, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

22 children's lives were saved because a gun was not accessible to one mentally unstable kid.

Jason, you're absolutely right...and if he would have had a gun, it could have been even higher than 22.

But the point I was trying to make though is that even when guns aren't accessible, mentally ill people will still find others ways to mass harm or kill people - knives, bombs, driving a car into a crowd, poison Kool-Aid, etc.

I just think people are focusing their attention on guns instead of the root of the problem (the mental illness). The fact of the matter is that guns will never be banned and people need to get over that and focus on the problem (again, the mental illness) rather than focus on the means by which the mentally ill kill.

Runscott · #8 04-11-2014, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I just think people are focusing their attention on guns instead of the root of the problem (the mental illness). The fact of the matter is that guns will never be banned and people need to get over that and focus on the problem (again, the mental illness) rather than focus on the means by which the mentally ill kill.

You are spot-on about this. I read more about the stabbing by the 16-yr old today - they said he was a B-B+ student with no apparent problems or past signs of mental illness, and looked like a 'deer in the headlights' after the stabbings. People treat these events as if the person all of a sudden became evil and should now be punished as quickly and severely as possible - we hear it right here on this forum. We never know at this stage why he did this, but 9 times out of 10 it was a first mental break. I've explained before what that actually means, and it falls on deaf ears for anyone who hasn't been through it with a loved one or close friend, so I won't repeat myself.

Protecting society from the 'symptoms' and administering punishment is also necessary, but, as you say, there needs to be a focus on the problem rather than the symptom. Gun-control helps deal with the symptoms, but trying a 16-yr old as an adult probably has more adverse consequences than positive. For one thing, it reinforces the punishment aspect, and you might be punishing someone for something that they had no control over - I suspect that knowing he was going to be punished, regardless of how severely, would have had no affect on this guy's actions. All it does is keep society happy and allow them to focus on the evil of the act and ignore the possible mental illness - no one wants to be responsible for other people's mental illness.

steve B · #9 04-11-2014, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

You are spot-on about this. I read more about the stabbing by the 16-yr old today - they said he was a B-B+ student with no apparent problems or past signs of mental illness, and looked like a 'deer in the headlights' after the stabbings. People treat these events as if the person all of a sudden became evil and should now be punished as quickly and severely as possible - we hear it right here on this forum. We never know at this stage why he did this, but 9 times out of 10 it was a first mental break. I've explained before what that actually means, and it falls on deaf ears for anyone who hasn't been through it with a loved one or close friend, so I won't repeat myself.

Protecting society from the 'symptoms' and administering punishment is also necessary, but, as you say, there needs to be a focus on the problem rather than the symptom. Gun-control helps deal with the symptoms, but trying a 16-yr old as an adult probably has more adverse consequences than positive. For one thing, it reinforces the punishment aspect, and you might be punishing someone for something that they had no control over - I suspect that knowing he was going to be punished, regardless of how severely, would have had no affect on this guy's actions. All it does is keep society happy and allow them to focus on the evil of the act and ignore the possible mental illness - no one wants to be responsible for other people's mental illness.

I'd agree with this.

There's a rush towards the knee jerk reaction to punish. That's what our society seems to demand (Myself included fairly often)

But the ability to deal with any underlying mental aspects even if they're known in advance is either totally missing or done in such an all or nothing way that it's unworkable.
Someone with a problem can't be forced to get help or to maintain that help. At least until they cross a certain line. And the alternative looks bad too if the people involved are clueless. Like the school that forced a kid who was fidgeting with a pencil into a 5 hour mental and physical evaluation after another kid who had been picking on him claimed he was making gun motions with the pencil - Coerced consent with no due process looks pretty ugly.

And there's no sensible provision for temporary circumstances. If someone in a bad situation says or is accused of saying the wrong thing, a restraining order is issued (probably appropriately) And that then precludes gun ownership permanently in many places. leading to the obligatory confiscations "voluntary" or otherwise. Likely prolonging the anger and making it more severe in the short term.
I can't help but think that many of those people will be just fine in some period of time. Their anger fades and the risk just isn't there. But the effects of that one mistake are for life.
An ability to temporarily remove someone's guns until a particularly bad stretch of their life has passed would be more work, and more difficult, but perhaps more fair in the long term.

Steve B

Runscott · #10 04-11-2014, 01:43 PM

Steve, to go a touch further with this - a swift, severe punishment, even when the person is proven to have mental illness, allows the public to pretend like their child could never end up in the same situation. It comes down to such a scenario being too horrible to comprehend, so instead of 'mental illness', it was an incredibly evil person.

steve B · #11 04-11-2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, to go a touch further with this - a swift, severe punishment, even when the person is proven to have mental illness, allows the public to pretend like their child could never end up in the same situation. It comes down to such a scenario being too horrible to comprehend, so instead of 'mental illness', it was an incredibly evil person.

I don't think it's right or just. But that's the initial instinctive reaction of many people.

Somehow it's not that hard for me to comprehend someone doing something horrific. History is full of evidence that it's not only possible but sadly likely.
What is hard is figuring out what's reasonable to do. it's a hard choice to let someone slide on it because they weren't right mentally. As a Montana judge supposedly said when denying an insanity defense - something like yes, normal people don't usually kill other people. (naive for a judge, I'd think he'd at least have heard of people doing that for hire

)
But it's also hard to justify a serious punishment for someone who probably had no idea what they were actually doing.

The flip side is people who do something like that with a plan or to hide another crime, or just because they don't give a _ about anyone but themselves (Like locking kids in a car in 100+ weather to spend an hour or two in a bar) .........yes, fast and severe punishment.

Steve B

teetwoohsix · #12 04-13-2014, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, to go a touch further with this - a swift, severe punishment, even when the person is proven to have mental illness, allows the public to pretend like their child could never end up in the same situation. It comes down to such a scenario being too horrible to comprehend, so instead of 'mental illness', it was an incredibly evil person.

+1

Unfortunately, this is an area where society hasn't evolved.

As far as gun control, I think the Ministry of Propaganda, along with political driven agendas, have used a few terrible incidents to attempt to convince the masses that this (mentally ill people going on rampages with guns) is a common place thing. You have far more intentional gang shootings by people who know what they are doing and are not mentally ill. Why don't they use this platform? Because then you have to talk about the failed war on drugs, poverty, the prison industrial complex, decaying infrastructure in the inner cities, no jobs, bad economy, national debt, etc. It's much easier to divert the attention to the mentally ill, cherry pick a couple of tragedies, and push the "gun control" agenda that way.

If the two issues were separated- you would not hear much talk about the mentally ill, sadly.

Sincerely, Clayton

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