Mystery Solved - Pinpointing the dates of W590 cards

[spec]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I think it might be worse Dan. As I look at that list, it seems that every player there could have two cards, not just the players where it's been confirmed. Each subject was playing in 1925, meaning every one could have a card saying "former __", team change or, if the guy had played for the same team the whole 6 years, just a font change.

There are 41 subjects? It looks like they used the exact same sheet for each printing, and just changed the captions and the fonts. It's strange no one here has confirmed the Roy Spencer card, but it seems doubtful they would have a sheet or strip configuration of 41, unless the 42nd space was used for some sort of header. Otherwise I suppose they never produced a Spencer card, and the right count is 40.

The Burns could have been a corrected error, as he did play for the Giants through 1921, and who knows, maybe there's a third Hornsby out there. Happy hunting!

The Burns (NY Giants) W590 shows him as a coach and thus should be 6b, not 7c, on the master list. I can also confirm the other variations listed as Standard Catalog only, with the exception, of course, of Roy Spencer, who probably does not exist. Presumably W590s were issued in strips of 10, like their cousins, W580 boxers, athletes, presidents and movie stars. Four of my W590s have numbers in the left margin (Burns-Clev. 10, Grimm 11, Kelly 12 and Young 15), likely the numbers of the strips.

[mybuddyinc]

For what's it's worth , all the Boxing W590's I've owned or seen, fall into the "1925 - Player name in bold, Position (weight-class) not bold" group.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by spec

The Burns (NY Giants) W590 shows him as a coach and thus should be 6b, not 7c, on the master list. I can also confirm the other variations listed as Standard Catalog only, with the exception, of course, of Roy Spencer, who probably does not exist. Presumably W590s were issued in strips of 10, like their cousins, W580 boxers, athletes, presidents and movie stars. Four of my W590s have numbers in the left margin (Burns-Clev. 10, Grimm 11, Kelly 12 and Young 15), likely the numbers of the strips.

Great discussion so far guys. Kudos to the ones doing the heavy lifting on this stuff so we can all benefit. I am not sure about how many were in strips but maybe different years came different ways?

[h2oya311]

Or perhaps the second image is simply the right hand portion of rows 8, 9, 10, and 11.

Edited to add: although it looks like the top border is quite a bit larger in your first strip example vs. the second. Are there any discernible differences b/w those 5 common player images? I didn't see any.

[spec]

Originally Posted by Leon

Great discussion so far guys. Kudos to the ones doing the heavy lifting on this stuff so we can all benefit. I am not sure about how many were in strips but maybe different years came different ways?

It's worth noting that Leon's 5x4 block of W590s has 2 baseball players on the same row as 3 boxers. That suggests there were not 4 purely baseball strips. Thus, the elusive Mr. Spencer seems more plausible, though still unlikely.
Does anyone have an unchanged player, like Gehrig, with caption in the thinner type face (I don't)? If not, the lighter font may have been used only for players with changed captions, just as the caption variations in E97 were unique.

[nolemmings]

It's worth noting that Leon's 5x4 block of W590s has 2 baseball players on the same row as 3 boxers. That suggests there were not 4 purely baseball strips.

I noticed that too.

Also, it looks as if Todt and/or Wheat are not in the same strip row.

[glchen]

I want to show the another known uncut strip (which I do not own), in addition to the one that Leon has in a previous post.

The 10 card strip that Leon has in the most common one that I've seen, with the players: (row 11) Charlie Grimm, Max Carey, Jimmy Caveney, George Burns (Phil - OF), Grover Alexander, Travis Jackson, Dave Bancroft, Buckey Harris, and Frank Frisch, and Tris Speaker.

This other uncut strip, which is hard to see, has the following: (row 10) George Burns (Cleve - 1B), Ray Blades, Eddie Rommell, Phil Todt, George Dauss, Heinie Sand, Jess Barnes, Rabbit Maranville, Dazzy Vance, and Eppa Rixey.

Note that if you assume that the rows are sequential, e.g., row 10 is above row 11, this causes discrepancies what the booklet sheet that Leon has. In the booklet, it shows the last 5 players from (row 11). However, in the row immediately above it, there are 5 non-baseball cards. This doesn't mesh with (row 10), which has baseball players for the entire row.

Therefore, another theory is that the W590s were distributed in different ways, booklet sheets and individually in 10 card strips. You will notice on the 10 card strips there are very wide top and bottom borders, which you do not see in the booklet sheets. This may explain why some cards in the w590 set are much more common than others since some may have only been distributed in the booklet sheets, while others may have been distributed in the booklet sheets and in the individual 10 card strips.

[shammus]

Hey all,

Sorry I'm a bit late but wanted to take a couple days to gather my cards for scanning and gather my thoughts as well.

I believe my checklist matches Gary's pretty well as that's the one I remember us putting together a while back. I'm still at 51 out of 60 total cards. Missing Spencer (of course) for the base set and 8 other variations for the Master set. I've never been able to confirm the Spencer as a valid part of the checklist. I'm also wondering about the Dauss Former Pitcher card as I think there's been a lot of confusion about that player.

I've really wanted to support the font theory in the past and have mentioned the subtle differences in the captions before. Problem is, in going through my own collection, it seems as though I find cards that already dispute it, heh. You really start getting into real nuances about what's bold and what isn't. The "bold" in some fonts, presumably from 1925, just appear darker than others from the same year. In the scans I show up above, cards like Frisch and Gowdy appear to have darker captions on their first card, but cards like the Bancroft and Kelly really throw me. On Bancroft which is shown in the scan, it appears that the 2nd card, the Boston, is actually a TINY bit bolder than the first. Both fonts are very close though.

The Williams is the strongest argument against the font theory unfortunately. On my Boston Williams, the name, position, team name and league are all heavily bolded. On my St. Louis Williams, the name is lighter and the position, teamname and league aren't bold at all. Williams truly deals the font theory a crushing blow because the fonts aren't even close in my opinion. I'd love if it was that clearcut and easy though!

w590-1-001.jpg

w590-2-001.jpg

[paul]

I guess I should have posted my font theory BEFORE shelling out the big bucks for a Gehrig "rookie".

[glchen]

Originally Posted by spec

The Burns (NY Giants) W590 shows him as a coach and thus should be 6b, not 7c, on the master list. I can also confirm the other variations listed as Standard Catalog only, with the exception, of course, of Roy Spencer, who probably does not exist. Presumably W590s were issued in strips of 10, like their cousins, W580 boxers, athletes, presidents and movie stars. Four of my W590s have numbers in the left margin (Burns-Clev. 10, Grimm 11, Kelly 12 and Young 15), likely the numbers of the strips.

Thanks for this info! I've updated the Master Checklist.