Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[Runscott]

Ryan, as you can see from posts subsequent to yours, common sense is never going to prevail in this hobby.

[vintagetoppsguy]

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

+1 . . . . too many people living in glass houses trying to throw stones!

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

[freakhappy]

This thread is getting comical. I mean, I get people's take from both sides, but why do people against soaking cards think it's so unethical? If the water or chemicals do not affect the card, why care? I don't agree with trimming, recoloring, rolling out wrinkles, etc,. but if what is being done is simply cleaning up the card with no side effects, what's the big deal?

And what's up with the common sense comments? Who made the rules about ethics around here anyway? I'm totally against a chemical/water that will alter a card in the long run, but until then we have no proof.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

My statement you quoted wasn't referring to just disclosure. It's a combination of many things - soaking, cutting pictures out of old magazines, whatever. Some people try and make you feel stupid if you don't see things from their point of view.

As far as disclosure, there have been many, many threads over the years on soaking cards. Many, many board members have admitted to soaking. I am one of them. I've soaked several cards, some with good results and some with bad. And if many people on this board admit to soaking, just think of how many non-members are out there who soak as well. Here's the kicker, Alex. Go search eBay for "T206 soaked" or "T206 stain removed." Guess how many results you get? Zero. Now search again, but replace the word "T206" with the word "Topps." How many results now? Still zero. So, of the thousands and thousands of cards that have ever been soaked, is it that none of them just never get listed on eBay, or is it that people don't disclose it? I think you know the answer.

My opinion is why disclose that if no harm is ever going to come from it and it's never going to make any difference whatsoever? Again, that's just my opinion, everybody else is entitled to theirs as well. Every one of us has to do what we think is right.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

The gist seems to be that people have their own ethics and would prefer that those be honored by disclosure. I haven't heard anyone say you can't soak or clean a card. Instead people are saying overwhelmingly that it should be disclosed upon sale.

No, previous posts show that the attitude toward disclosure of soaking vs disclosure of chemical cleaning is overwhelmingly NOT the same.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

One thing that always will prevail in this hobby are those who want to impose their own opinions, morals and ethics on others and make condescending remarks if you don't agree with them.

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's all true, but we like you anyway.

I like you too, Scott

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I like you too, Scott

You won't after I give my 'Noah' review

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You won't after I give my 'Noah' review

Saw it for about 10 minutes tonight and had to leave because of a family emergency (my wife's family). I'm going to spoil it for you, Scott. They're all white and speak in English

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Saw it for about 10 minutes tonight and had to leave because of a family emergency (my wife's family). I'm going to spoil it for you, Scott. They're all white and speak in English

Sorry to hear about your family emergency, David. But regarding the movie, I just got back from it two hours ago, so spoil away.

If you want my spoiler, here it is: it isn't a literal interpretation of the Bible, and they used real actors. You'll hate it.

[ctownboy]

freakhappy,

The big deal about soaking and cleaning a card is the same thing as rolling the odometer back on a vehicle. What the card and the vehicle has gone through during its "life" is NOT being accurately represented by what is seen AFTER the cleaning (or rolling back ofthe odometer).

Look, if a 30 year- old car has 75,000 miles on it and has only been owned and driven by a little old lady, there is an expectation of how well that car has been taken care of and what condition that car is in. Because of that, that car is most likely going to sell for more than the same car that has 200,000 miles on it and whose last owner was an 18 year - old boy.

The SAME thing with a baseball card.

Until the last 20 or so years, baseball cards were meant to be collected, traded, flipped and put in bicycle spokes. They were NOT originally intended to be kept in pristine condition. Before that, they were distributed in packaging that contributed to their condition not being pristine. So, when a card IS found in great condition, the price it sells for is going to be higher than if it were in lower condition.

Rolling the odometer back on a vehicle is illegal because 1) the price you pay for the vehicle is going to be higher than it otherwise would be and 2) the perception of what you are getting and the reality of what you are getting are two different things.

With vehicles, there are maintenance and safety issues that come up with an odometer being rolled back. With cards, you do NOT know what is going to happen in time with a card that has been cleaned. You (or your heirs) might literally be banking on that card staying in the same condition and appreciating in value. But jut think what happens when you overpay for a cleaned card and either 1) the technology comes into play and it can be proven the card has been cleaned, 2) the card deteriorates or 3) both things happen.

How happy are you going to be then?

Finally, for those who think cleaning a card is okee dokey, I am sure if you have a card cleaned and the improved look causes the card to improve in grading, you ARE going to both disclose the card has been cleaned AND sell the card for the value of the lower grade, right?

David Smith