Is there any possible way to know how many complete 1914 CJ Sets exist?

[btkpath]

Steve, thats right, it took me about 5 years to finish the set. It is not that five years is a tremendous amount of time, but I lived and breathed 1914 CJ's for at least 4 of those years and don't think I purchased a single "non-red" card in that time. Not to sound like a DB, but money was not the issue in completing the set…….availability was. This may have changed slightly in the past year or two with several sets being disassembled and hitting the market, but it is still a tremendously difficult set to COLLECT.

I capitalized "collect" to bring up the point that, of the four complete sets listed on the SGC and PSA sites, two of them were purchased as complete sets or essentially complete sets, and one was (as legend holds) obtained directly from the CJ factory There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it is very different than collecting a set one/several card(s) at a time.

The other point I would bring up is, whereas the population reports are the best that we have, they clearly overestimate the populations of graded cards (by how much, I don't know) because there are many cards that get broken out of their holders and get resubmitted to another company, either for the sake of registry completeness, perceived under grading or the perception that a different holder will instill additional value to the card. Again, I don't say this disparagingly, but it is a fact (I know I have been complicit…..). I think this is especially true of the rarer cards and perhaps the key expensive cards in the set.

I maintain that I can't imagine there being more than 10-12 complete sets.

Sorry Tom……I know this missive doesn't address the main question that you posed regarding the rarity of other sets, but even back in high school I always had trouble actually answering the question that was posed…....

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by btkpath

I capitalized "collect" to bring up the point that, of the four complete sets listed on the SGC and PSA sites, two of them were purchased as complete sets or essentially complete sets, and one was (as legend holds) obtained directly from the CJ factory There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it is very different than collecting a set one/several card(s) at a time.

How did someone obtain that set?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

How did someone obtain that set?

Its all about who you know and cash talks.

I agree that cards are crossed over, busted out and the reports are a touch inflated...I have also contributed to this. You definitely lived and breathed CJs Barry for all that time. I also agree about collecting the cards one at a time, finding them in the far reaches takes some work opposed to buying someone elses set.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

I also agree about collecting the cards one at a time, finding them in the far reaches takes some work opposed to buying someone elses set.

The hunt is the fun part. I have met a lot of fellow collectors along the way and I look forward to getting to know more of you.

Alex

[vintagecpa]

Just my opinion, but I always felt more unknown raw cards exist than most people estimate. We can only imagine how many old-time collectors have no reason to spend the money grading their collection. When these collections are passed down in the family, not everyone sends them to an auction house. Many just get passed from one safe to another, especially within a wealthier family. If I had to guess an over/under, I would be between 40-50.

[sniffy5]

Yep. I agree with the money situation. It helps tremendously. But the time comes where a person will be SOL if he or she is looking for a certain card, especially in a certain grade. I can track down the highest graded Keating, call it a Psa 7, let's say. And I can wave $8000 at the owner. The man is a millionaire many times over. One of the top 2 Psa sets is owned by the guy who owns the Pittsburgh Steelers, and lord knows what else. He laughs at my $8000 (which I don't have that kind of discretionary income anyway). Besides, no one wants to break up a set, not even us little guys.

As for the crossovers without retiring labels, which I'm sure has been discussed countless times on the forum, it is prevalent to the third power with the 1914's. The population numbers are inflated. I can vouch for that. Obvious point, it's true...but when a card till only has a Psa pop of 12, and it has been inflated, that is one scarce card.

[glchen]

I think that there are a lot of really tough prewar sets out there, but since they are not widely collected like the 1914 CJ's, it's difficult to tell how rare they really are. For example, I think the W519 Numbered Type 2 and W590 Master set are really difficult to complete. However, if each card in these sets went for $1000+ like some of the difficult cards from the CJ's, perhaps a lot more of them would appear. Because of lot of these cards from these sets sell for less than $50, there is not great demand for dealers and collectors to scour their inventory to see if they have these cards and put them for sale on ebay or at an auction house. Other tough sets include E121-80 (and not including the back variations), E121-120, E122, and E220. I'm sure that there are plenty of other difficult sets. Still, I think the 1914 CJ's is one of the most difficult with a large number of collectors actively spending $$$$ to try to finish.

[sniffy5]

I personally doubt 40 or more sets are out there.

[CW]

Originally Posted by btkpath

...and one was (as legend holds) obtained directly from the CJ factory

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

How did someone obtain that set?

I was curious about the answer to this question, and I remember SGC at one time had a webpage dedicated to this set.

Back in 2004, SGC released a website promoting the sale of a very high grade 1914 complete set. The set sold, supposedly before it was graded, for $800,000 and was advertised to be sold through Mastro. The set was graded and received many high grades, including an amazing SGC 98 Joe Jackson.

I did some searches for the SGC site, which is now no longer in existence, but did come across some matches on the wayback machine. The Net54 archive also had a thread on the set, which (oddly enough ) went off on a couple tangents and provided its share of drama.

Old Net54 thread brought about by the announcement of the sale

Going back in time -- the opening intro page to the site

The press release about the sale

And the discussion of the find, which mentions the factory connection, but not how the set was obtained...