Color "error" variations in t206 cards

teetwoohsix · #1 03-18-2014, 10:39 PM

NM

teetwoohsix · #2 03-18-2014, 10:58 PM

Alright, I've been putting a lot of thought into this subject. I understand that UV rays can potentially fade colors on a card. I still have a hard time believing that it will completely remove a color though, to the point that you can't even tell the color was ever there. I understand many disagree with this.

With that being said- if a card sat in the sun for so long that it completely removed *let's say the color red

* from the card- wouldn't the sun also degrade the composition of the paper as well? Would the sun's UV rays make the paper brittle? Not trying to sway the conversation into another direction, but I thought this was worth bringing up. The point I'm trying to make is-in my mind, a card would have to sit under direct sunlight for a pretty long time to completely remove a whole color-so, wouldn't we also be able to tell by the cardboard that this was a sun soaked card we were looking at?

Thanks for all well thought out and informative input-

Sincerely, Clayton

steve B · #3 03-19-2014, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Alright, I've been putting a lot of thought into this subject. I understand that UV rays can potentially fade colors on a card. I still have a hard time believing that it will completely remove a color though, to the point that you can't even tell the color was ever there. I understand many disagree with this.

With that being said- if a card sat in the sun for so long that it completely removed *let's say the color red

* from the card- wouldn't the sun also degrade the composition of the paper as well? Would the sun's UV rays make the paper brittle? Not trying to sway the conversation into another direction, but I thought this was worth bringing up. The point I'm trying to make is-in my mind, a card would have to sit under direct sunlight for a pretty long time to completely remove a whole color-so, wouldn't we also be able to tell by the cardboard that this was a sun soaked card we were looking at?

Thanks for all well thought out and informative input-

Sincerely, Clayton

It depends on the cardboard.

Late 70's-early 80's Topps, many of the strip cards, and others yes the cardboard will start having problems. Those are all printed on paper with a lot of wood fiber which makes it acidic and that's what makes it brittle. The sun can speed that up a bit.

But T206 are printed on a paper that's got a lot less or maybe even no wood fiber. (I don't think any have ever actually been tested for the paper content) It's a reasonably close match for the acid free cardstock used for some comic backing boards and for some artists cardstock.
As far as I know sunlight either won't affect it or it will take so long none of us will see it happen.

Steve B

bnorth · #4 03-19-2014, 08:45 AM

I think most of you would be very surprised at how easy sun removes colors from cards. Different years and brands are affected differently. I have never tried a T206 card, but would like to. The card on the left took 45 days to look like this and it had a darker yellow than the control card. It was faded under 3 layers of UV plastic and 25% shade cloth.

When taking a picture of a faded card the faded color leaves a dull area were the color was completely faded off. The card pictured does not have the slight contrast in hand that shows up in the photo.

The so called blue 58 Topps Hank Aaron are a great example of this. There is a thread in the post war section on them now. Notice the off white around the Indian. If it really left the factory missing the yellow to make the card blue it would be white there not off white.

drumback · #5 03-19-2014, 11:36 PM

I'm wondering why, if indeed sunlight is responsible for the majority of color variations, red sometimes fades to a very light red, and other times fades to a bright orange. Not an expert by any means, but this doesn't make sense to me.

MVSNYC · #6 03-19-2014, 11:54 PM

Hi Mark, i don't think anyone here said the sun is responsible for the "majority" of color variations. in fact, i think i stated that the majority of color scraps/errors are legit...suggesting, the sun or chemicals are responsible for the color damage, in only a smaller percentage of cases. we got kinda sidetracked in this thread debating whether or not UV light can damage/fade cards/posters. we know it can...anyway, there's plenty of real, legit color variations out there from the factory.

t206hound · #7 03-20-2014, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drumback

I'm wondering why, if indeed sunlight is responsible for the majority of color variations, red sometimes fades to a very light red, and other times fades to a bright orange. Not an expert by any means, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Red on the cards isn't always just red... sometimes red is layered on top of orange (combination of pink/buff and yellow). See the McGinnity's in this auction (I was the consignor and honestly was hoping for a much higher price). It you notice on the one with the red, on the left side near the face you can see some of the orange. I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

drumback · #8 03-20-2014, 02:26 PM

So, you are saying they used three different layers to end up at red? Why would they do that? Doesn't that just unnecessarily add cost to the process?

Jantz · #9 03-20-2014, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206hound

I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

If the sun faded away the red to reveal the colors underneath then shouldn't the background on that McGinnity be yellow instead of orange? Question is not directed at you Er!ck, just asking in general for this discussion.

Yellow was the base background color and the second ink pass applied to darken the background is still evident on the card.

Not saying it isn't possible, but its kind of a stretch to think that the sun faded off only the top layer of background ink and stopped there. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Clayton - I wish the glue on the back of that McGinnity had leached out all of the red ink. Then my McGinnity would be a blank back!

Jantz

MuddyMules · #10 03-23-2014, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206hound

Red on the cards isn't always just red... sometimes red is layered on top of orange (combination of pink/buff and yellow). See the McGinnity's in this auction (I was the consignor and honestly was hoping for a much higher price). It you notice on the one with the red, on the left side near the face you can see some of the orange. I think in the sunlight theory that the red layer is faded away to reveal the color(s) underneath.

Take a look at the picture I have attached. The halftone dots are all at different angles for each color (Black, Cyan, Magenta and Yellow). Look at both of the McGinnity's with a powerful loupe and see if the magenta dots are running at the same angle on both cards. It is very possible that a yellow negative was shot on a magenta plate for the one on the left. Then it was caught by someone and a new plate was made with the correct negative on the correct plate.

Also, it is possible that the magenta and yellow plates were mislabeled before they went to press or the pressman put the yellow plate on the magenta cylinder and the magenta plate on the yellow cylinder and then caught the mistake and swapped the plates.

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