What's the real deal with these Cuban cards?

[Scocs]

My guess: since Americans are buying these cards, then the owner (in Cuba) ships to seller (in Spain), who then ships to you in USA. Not sure if that's true, but it makes logical sense.

[ctownboy]

Scocs,

I thought that might be what was going on. But, imho, if it is, then that type of deception is another red flag against the authenticity of these cards.

Finding an unknown issue of Cuban baseball cards in Spain adds some credibility to the story. I mean, the thinking would go, "Who in Spain would fake cards and where would they get the source material to do so?". However, if the sellers and cards are both in Cuba then there would be plenty of source material to fake cards and the story wouldn't hold up so well....

Not saying the cards are fakes because I don''t know but changing the location of the seller from Spain to Cuba, to me, seems like it would make a big difference.

I will now sit back and see what happens next.

Somebody please add the popcorn emoticon to this thread....

David

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I will now sit back and see what happens next.

Somebody please add the popcorn emoticon to this thread....

David

We could just get Gizmo to bring the popcorn..

If only we could get these two to debate each other... I think that would be fun...

[Exhibitman]

So the origins story on eBay is false and designed to evade American law? Yikes!

[Cubanball]

Since my name has been listed by the seller of the Romeo y Julieta cards in the eBay description, and in this forum, without my permission, I thought I should add what I know to the discussion. I have known of the existence of the Romeo y Julieta cards for a few years now. My first impression upon seeing images of the cards brought up many red flags. Since I did not get to inspect the cards personally I decided not to add them to my Cubanball web site. At the beginning of this discussion I was contacted by Rolando from Cuba via email stating adamantly that this group of cards currently on eBay are real. I respect Rolando’s opinion highly and added the cards to my web site. Still I am not 100% convinced either way. To assist with the discussion here is what I have been able to discern about the cards based on the images we have available. I am concentrating on the Almendares cards since those are the ones that are causing the most concern.

Carlos Royer:

Front of card: The card pictures Carlos Royer in Almendares uniform. The same photo used in the Punch set. The picture is cropped and the background whited out. It is possible that the picture is whited out because it came from a newspaper archive. Newspaper would sometimes white out backgrounds when adding a photo of a player to a story. The card has the team name “ALMENDARES” hand written in white at above the player photo and his name “Calos Royer,” his nickname “Bebe” and position “P.” hand written in white below the player photo. Note the “R” missing from his first name. The front of the card has some creasing and stains that could be natural or added purposely to show age.

Back of card: The back of the card has the players name and nickname, spelled correctly, team name and “Serie 1911.” This is interesting since Carlos Royer was indeed with Almendares for the 1910 Cuban league championship but was with Club Fe in 1910-11 season. Next you have his “Batting Average” and “Fielding Average.” A few at this forum have question the fact that they are written in English, but this is not a problem. Cubans learned baseball in the U.S. and from Americans in the island and Cubans were familiar with the English baseball terms. Many early Cuban baseball publications are replete with English baseball terms. Also it is not strange to list a pitcher’s batting average since back then a pitcher would likely play the field in games he was not pitching in and off course bat on days he pitched. Now we get to the stats themselves. I have been unable to place the year of the batting average stats listed. The 8 J (games), 20 V (at-bats), 2 C (runs), 5 H (hits), and 250 Ave do not match his regular season totals for any of his seasons as listed on the 1956 Beisbo Cubano (Records y Estadisticas) by Gabino Delgado and Severo Nieto. I also checked the Negro Leagues Database as well. Another possibility, which makes more sense, is that the stats reference the “American Series.” In 1911 Almendares played four games against the Phillies and six games against the Giants. Unfortunately I do not have any American Series source for comparison. The card has printed the “Obsequio de los Cigarros ROMEO y JULIETTA” that identify the maker. The back of the card also shows aging. The card was not cut entirely straight with the bottom showing signs of hand cutting.

Estaquio Pedroso: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Pedroso card as the Royer card. I will concentrate on the differences.

Front of card: Pedroso’s name is written correctly on the front of the card. The cards shows less wear and staining than the Royer card.

Back of card: The card lists him playing for “Almendares” and the series as 1915 (Serie 1915). Pedroso did play for Almendares in the 1914-15 season and in the 1915 American series. Almendares played 9 games against the Indianapolis ABCs in the 1915 American Series which match the number of games in the stats on the back of the card. The aging is similar to the Royer card and the cut is inconsistent as well.

Emilio Palomino: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Palomino card as the Royer and Pedroso cards.

Front of card: Palomino’s first initial and last name is written in the front of the card. Along with his position as R. F. (right field).

Back of card: The back, like the Royer card, list the team as Almendares and the series as 1911. According to my sources Palomino did play with Almendares in the regular 1910-11 season. Again the stats would be consistent with the American Series, but not the regular season. The back shows more foxing than the other cards and the cut is slightly off on one edge.

Evaristo Pla: The same format applies to the front and back of the cards of the Pla card as the other cards.

Front of the card: Pla’s full name is written correctly on the front of the card along with his position as “Director.”

Back of the card: There are no stats since he is correctly listed as Director and Trainer for Almendares. The back shows aging consistent with the other cards. The cut is straighter than the others.

As for the years of the cards I agree with Ryan, based on the match between the back of the Falagan and Pla cards, that they were printed in the same year very likely circa 1922. I hope this adds some constructive information to the discussion.

[ElCabron]

Thanks for your excellent input, Cesar. In your opinion, how confident would you say you are that they are real? I don't want to speak for him, but it sounds like Rolando is 100% confident. A few days ago, I was around 75% confident. Right now, more like 50%. How about you?

-Ryan

[Cubanball]

Ryan, I would agree with your assessment. I would say that my first glance of the cards gave me the impression that they may have been faked. Then after hearing from Rolando and taking a closer look at the cards now on eBay I swung more to the real side. Again, this is all based on examination of the images and attempting to figure out some of the enigmas surrounding the set. The use of the punch photos, the reference back to the 1911 and 1915 series, ect. In my estimation many of the enigmas can be explained if the set is real. It is possible that Romeo y Julieta put out a set around 1922 with Amateur players and with Almendares players referencing back to the heyday of the American Series. They could have used photos from a Cuban newspaper archive that had used the same photos used in the punch cards, which can also be found in some publications. The set may have been a test and only a few may have been printed leading to little being known about them. All this is possible. But, we both know to what extent unscrupulous people have gone to fake Cuban baseball cards. So every time I see cards never seen before it always puts me on the defensive. Right now I want to believe they are real but the doubts have not gone away completely.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Cubanball

Ryan, I would agree with your assessment. I would say that my first glance of the cards gave me the impression that they may have been faked. Then after hearing from Rolando and taking a closer look at the cards now on eBay I swung more to the real side. Again, this is all based on examination of the images and attempting to figure out some of the enigmas surrounding the set. The use of the punch photos, the reference back to the 1911 and 1915 series, ect. In my estimation many of the enigmas can be explained if the set is real. It is possible that Romeo y Julieta put out a set around 1922 with Amateur players and with Almendares players referencing back to the heyday of the American Series. They could have used photos from a Cuban newspaper archive that had used the same photos used in the punch cards, which can also be found in some publications. The set may have been a test and only a few may have been printed leading to little being known about them. All this is possible. But, we both know to what extent unscrupulous people have gone to fake Cuban baseball cards. So every time I see cards never seen before it always puts me on the defensive. Right now I want to believe they are real but the doubts have not gone away completely.

I know that you don't typically like to get involved in this "stuff", but I know that the general population appreciates your feedback and insight. Thanks again.