OT - Best 3B ever?

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah you don't see Bill Mazeroski (considered my many to be the greatest fielding 2nd baseman ever) in the discussion with Hornsby and Collins etc. If his name comes up at all it's usually to say it's a joke he is in the Hall.

How about Keith Hernandez in the first base discussion? Let's be consistent, Brooks fans.

Can we agree that Brooks was the best defensive 3rd baseman of all time? Or we can go with what Frank Robinson stated, "He was the best defensive player at any position." The problem you have is Brooks could hit, was a clutch hitter at that, a leader,...AND...look at his post season performance as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Can we agree that Brooks was the best defensive 3rd baseman of all time? Or we can go with what Frank Robinson stated, "He was the best defensive player at any position." The problem you have is Brooks could hit, was a clutch hitter at that, a leader,...AND...look at his post season performance as well.

I'm not taking anything away from his fielding ability -- and he was a very good hitter but nowhere near the level of Schmidt, Brett or Mathews. I would rate him 4th or at best 3rd. Bill James rates him 7th which seems harsh. He surely belongs ahead of Santo. James also rates Boggs and Home Run Baker higher. As a long time Sox fan I feel Boggs is the most overrated player in history, or at least the one with the most deceptive stats.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not taking anything away from his fielding ability -- and he was a very good hitter but nowhere near the level of Schmidt, Brett or Mathews. I would rate him 4th or at best 3rd. Bill James rates him 7th which seems harsh. He surely belongs ahead of Santo. James also rates Boggs and Home Run Baker higher. As a long time Sox fan I feel Boggs is the most overrated player in history, or at least the one with the most deceptive stats.

Peter... I really don't have a problem with individuals rating him in the top 2-3 if they are interested in mainly the offensive statistics. Schmidt combined the two, hitting and fielding, and was the best of his era (not really just as a 3rd baseman).

Can we agree that Brooks played better, both offensively and defensively, in the postseason, than Schmidt?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not taking anything away from his fielding ability -- and he was a very good hitter but nowhere near the level of Schmidt, Brett or Mathews. I would rate him 4th or at best 3rd. Bill James rates him 7th which seems harsh. He surely belongs ahead of Santo. James also rates Boggs and Home Run Baker higher. As a long time Sox fan I feel Boggs is the most overrated player in history, or at least the one with the most deceptive stats.

Boggs is the best 3rd baseman and in no way is overrated.

Since we are obviously only talking offence #'s and how they compared to players in the era they played. Only Barry Bonds has more consecutive years leading the league in IBB than Wade. You can throw out any #'s you want but when the other teams fear you so much that you lead the league 6 years in a row in IBB that has to mean something.

Since 1955 when this became a recorded stat only Barry Bonds has led the league in IBB more times. Not just 3rd basemen but the league.
Chipper Jones never led the league in IBB.
George Brett led the league in IBB twice.
Mike Schmidt led the league in IBB twice.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Boggs is the best 3rd baseman and in no way is overrated.

Since we are obviously only talking offence #'s and how they compared to players in the era they played. Only Barry Bonds has more consecutive years leading the league in IBB than Wade. You can throw out any #'s you want but when the other teams fear you so much that you lead the league 6 years in a row in IBB that has to mean something.

Since 1955 when this became a recorded stat only Barry Bonds has led the league in IBB more times. Not just 3rd basemen but the league.
Chipper Jones never led the league in IBB.
George Brett led the league in IBB twice.
Mike Schmidt led the league in IBB twice.

Wade Boggs is the best 3B of all time because he had so many intentional walks? THAT is the stat that beats all others??

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Wade Boggs is the best 3B of all time because he had so many intentional walks? THAT is the stat that beats all others??

Just sticking up for my all-time favorite player. Right or wrong to me he is the best.

That stat might not beat all others but it means the other teams feared him the most IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Boggs never finished higher than 4th in MVP voting. He hit .330 one year and didn't make the top 20. Hit .363 one year with his best power numbers by far (24-89) and finished 9th. LOL. Vastly overrated, selfish player who cared only about his stats.

[darwinbulldog]

It's Mike Schmidt. Anybody know how he's doing?

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/s...midt-ill-.html

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Boggs never finished higher than 4th in MVP voting. He hit .330 one year and didn't make the top 20. Hit .363 one year with his best power numbers by far (24-89) and finished 9th. LOL. Vastly overrated, selfish player who cared only about his stats.

Boggs was a stud. MVP voter ranking is not a tell all (see also- all star ballot and HOF voting)... it can also mean that people got used to and had taken for granted the fact he hit .350 every year. He was great at what he did, which was spray the ball and hit gap to gap. I'd take him on my team in a second.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just sticking up for my all-time favorite player. Right or wrong to me he is the best.

That stat might not beat all others but it means the other teams feared him the most IMO.

I liked Boggs a lot, but I have to respond to this (IMO) gross misunderstanding of what an IBB means. It has almost nothing to do with how much a hitter is feared.

It has everything to do with how much a pitcher/team would rather face the guy hitting BEHIND the guy who gets the IBB. The assessment is less about the guy walking than it is about the guy after him. Even if you are only a good hitter, you'll get walked if the guy behind you is crap.

Not only that, but it is a question of whether the opposing team would rather face the guy behind you - even with you running on first. So it actually factors in how good/bad a runner the guy who walks is...is he a likely double play candidate? And is the guy behind him a ground ball hitter?

I'm amazed how many people misunderstand the significance of an IBB.

Mickey Mantle had fewer career IBBs than Joe Torre...true fact...


Cheers,
Blair

[Kenny Cole]

For example, Johnny Mize, who was a pretty good hitter in his own right, played with Martin Dihigo in Cuba. According to Mize. they were walking Dihigo to get to him.

The IBB certainly takes into account the person you are throwing the wide ones to, but if the hitter behind is better, it isn't going to happen.

[Mark70Z]

Glyn...you stated, "Bill james is right Offense does win more than defense in Baseball, and are we really gonna pretend those 70's Reds teams couldn't hit?"

The late 60's early 70's O's built their team around defense (fundamentals) and pitching. They had a couple of power hitters (F. Robby, Powell), but they were good defensive players as well. The 70's Reds could hit, but the O's beat them in the '70 WS!

I believe a defense can change the way a team plays, as I mentioned earlier the '66 Dodgers in the WS.

[GregMitch34]

Frank Baker's WAR for peak 7 years was about 46, just behind Chipper's 46.6. Might have hit 45 home runs a year in lively ball era... also, he hit .363 in six World Series...also stole 235 bases....and in peak seasons was always in upper half of league in 3b fielding...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Schmidt hit very well in a couple of series -- 80 WS and 83 NLCS -- but had a few disappearing acts that drove his overall postseason averages to pretty mediocre levels.