What is scrap and what isn't?

[JerryTotino]

Leon,

I would classify Brown Old Mills as scrap for several reasons. All confirmed examples are hand cut and they are not the normal color for this type of back. Thus, this back with Brown ink seems to have been a mistake or experiment. If there were actually intentions to distribute the Brown Old Mill I'm sure we would have run into a factory cut example by now and we would have also found them in greater numbers.

In addition, the fact that several of these come with the Factory 649 overprint it suggests that the printer knew they were scrap and ran at least several of these sheets through the printing process adding/testing the factory overprint process.

This also suggests that at least 2 full sheets of these backs may have been destroyed because there is only one known example with a single factory overprint and a second example with two factory overprints.

Jerry

[ALR-bishop]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....ighlight=scrap

[thehoodedcoder]

Stuff that Johnny V collects for a thousand Alex.

[mrvster]

You guys rock.....Erick, and Steve......this Ewing is A PERFECT example of a "TWEENER"....Scrap....

The Ewing, is scrap, but hard to prove......Steve knows it is scrap.....I know it's scrap.......HOUND DAWG, you have the eye on everything, but Ewing is a tough call.....I call on Erick for opinions all the time on objective scrap views, Erick's eye is like an eagle, He knows his Shit, but Ewing is a tuf call, because of the not so obvious scrap signs, putting it in the "tweener" category....but I know it's scrap due to the circumstantial evidence....Steve had a good call on Ewing...


going to break it down in tweener terms.....maybe Chris B can elaborate also...

Tweeners are the "grey " area of scrap......there are some beauties in the Piedy 150 run, due to the poor quality control in the early printing....just common sense....the lithography of these beauties were still in a "kinda of an experimental stage," first runs(some of the best scrap came out of the Piedy 150 runs)


Id love to see Ewing in person.....these "NON ISSUED" scraps are in a subset of their own... these "tweeners" will jump right out at me....

EWING CLUES:

1) top border peak above the "150" to the bottom highest point= (STEVE PLEASE measure), to the bottom "dip" is obvious scrap characteristics..........first big clue....this looks from the scan to be greater than 1/16th of an inch taller than the 2 5/8"...granted, there are OVERSIZED T206 top to bottom that exist out there, but the probability learns toward scrap with this card...


2) obvious miscut/misaligned / cut job, due to the super wide left front border(right reverse)..the back is another dead give away/ .....



THE SIZE, and obvious BACK miscut lead this to be a "TWEENER".....hard to "chop"
up a standard size 206 to reflect those characteristics and dimensions on the card.....


need a measurement! top highest point to the bottom dip....

coupled with the early 150 print run.....HIGH PROBABILTY OF SCRAP....90 % or greater inmho.....id love to hold this card., that's when one can really tell..


The bad hack job on the right side, still may have been done after the original card was cut off the scrap sheet......that could've been the annoying little sister with scissors

If this had a bad registration/ghost image/ color shift/ missing color/ double exposure/ missing ink/ ect, ect....any 1 more "clue" to scrap, it would be a 100% scrap then...


iv been searching for these for many years, and after a while, you can pick 'em right out of a line up.....but some are "not so obvious", as in the case with this particular card of Ewing....

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mrvster

starring at it many times when Steve had posted it, leads me to believe it's a tweener scrap, but I need that measurement

Peak to peak is 2 21/32, side to side is just barely under 1 1/2. So just barely over the nominal size both ways. But so close I wouldn't consider it oversized. The back is lined up fairly well with the front.

So yes, it very well could be a hack job by a kid somewhere along the line.

Steve B

[MuddyMules]

www.printingtips.com/glossary.asp

This site sums it up. Maybe the rules should be followed from actual printers that have already done the research, instead of coming up with a debate on what it should or should not be. If the card grading companies would follow the same standards that have been written longer than these companies have been in business, there would not be such a difference between them all. Since they are in business to make money, each grader will always make an attempt to change the rules into their own to be competitive.

Flop
Reversing a negative or transparency so that the image that was on the left side is now on the right.

Makeready
1.The process of setting up and adjusting a printing press for a particular ink, paper and specifications prior to printing. This includes adjusting the infeed, grippers and guides, adjusting ink for proper coverage, registering copy, and matching the printed piece with the proof to be sure everything is correct. Also referred to as set up. 2. The paper used while making all the necessary adjustments before printing the actual run. Also referred to as set up.

Proof
A copy of the artwork representing the finished product. It is used for review and approval.

Misregister
A problem in multiple color printing when the different color images do not line up properly as the successive colors are printed on the page.

Trapping
The overlapping of adjoining colors or ink to help prevent the possibility of a fine white area showing between colors due to misregistration of color negatives or due to normal variations on the press.



Make-ready sheets would be used for the printing press and then used for the cutters. Make-ready sheets would get mixed into the other sheets by mistake and cut and shipped. When you are cutting 4" thick blocks of press sheets, into 1" x 2" cards, the last thing you would want to do is go through the entire stack to check for a miscut card. If there were ten cards in that row, you would not want to take a chance on these stacks falling over and having to re-stack every card, especially when you're working with thousands of small cards. More concentration would be spent making sure your fingers are not in the blades and that your blocks used to hold the stacks, were actually holding the stacks up so they would not fall over.

Hand cut cards are NOT make-ready material and more than likely did not come from the factory. A printer would be proud of his/her product and would not take a pair of scissors and cut it up. Most likely, it was a child, at home, back when kids would actually do something constructive. If a card has been hand cut, instead of straight cut by a machine, it should be considered as "altered" or "trimmed", not make-ready or waste that was smuggled out in someones pocket. In my opinion, a hand-cut card should only be acceptable if the card had to be cut out from some other product.

A prepress proof is made prior to the product ever being printed in quantities. I worked in a printing company for years and had to burn images from four color separation negatives onto a sheet of paper and then rub different colored toners on each image until the final proof was obtained, laminated and approved by the customer, prior to ever being considered for printing. printwiki.org/Cromalin The four color separation would come from a camera shot and scanned to separate the four colors. You have four basic colors, Black, Cyan Magenta and Yellow. Each color has it own angle of half-tone dots, so you do not end up with a moire during printing. Besides these four main colors, there are several thousand other special colors that can be made. The majority of customers want to stay with the four color process to keep the costs down. instead of printing special colors and having to wash out the cylinders of the press for a special color run.

Prepress Proof
Any proof that has been made, using a photographical process opposed to a press proof that is an actual printed copy off the press.

Press Proof
A proof that is produce on the press using the inks and paper specified for that order.

Laminate Proof
A type of proof that uses laminate powdered toner to create a color image, such as Matchprint and Cromalin® proofs.

[mrvster]

great input.....but i'm sure some complete sheets never made it to machines for cutting for whatever reason.....the Ewing has oversized characteristics from the scan.....I'd love to know the dimensions top/to bottom on this card......it doesn't have any of the other obvious scrap characteristics. I mentioned earlier...


this was obviously not a "make ready" sheet, or falling in any of those definitions, but certain T206 cards we know never made it into the packs for distribution....Ewing is a "debatable" card making it a "tweener" scrap to me

tweener= an "in-between" can't make up our mind but leaning toward printer's scrap

[mrvster]

btw....my favorites are make readies

[MuddyMules]

Originally Posted by mrvster

btw....my favorites are make readies

Now that's a perfect example of a make-ready sheet and it's one of the best examples that I've seen. I love the extra run on the magenta going through the press with a different set of plates. Thanks for sharing.

[MuddyMules]

Originally Posted by mrvster

great input.....but i'm sure some complete sheets never made it to machines for cutting for whatever reason.....the Ewing has oversized characteristics from the scan.....I'd love to know the dimensions top/to bottom on this card......

The cutting of different weights of paper has different considerations. When cutting lighter-weight papers, it often happens that the knife as it cuts through the stack pulls sheets from beneath the clamp, resulting in upper sheets which are cut shorter than lower layers, a situation known as overcut. In contrast, harder stocks, such as cardboard, result in an undercut, or a small cut in an undesirable area, caused by insufficient clamp pressure.

http://printwiki.org/Cutting_and_Trimming

[mrvster]

but all the stock should have been consistent for the most part right??? since there was probably some deviation.....I'm still sure there had to have been some that were taken home/ thrown aside

[oldphil]

I feel that scrap=(s)crap.