Bid Retractions - A Punk Move?

[MattyC]

Look at all the fun and camaraderie we've been having here the last few months-- it's been a blast. Look at how much we enjoy the cards and the pursuit of the tough ones. Why would anyone want to let negativity fester and grow in their minds, and infect the purity and goodness of their relationship with cards? The cards are at once art, tickets to time travel, representations of greatness on the field, memories, invitations to learn more about history, and, yes, items of great if not inestimable value-- all wrapped in one. Am I going to let some $20 an hour grader ruin that, because occasionally they give an overly generous grade out, or let some shiller ruin that, when I can snipe? Hell no.

There is nothing wrong with great items having great value. More guys want them than there are examples. That makes total sense. That's why I for the most part stick to tough cards that are already expensive enough in LOW GRADE. I couldn't even dream of owning some of my cards in high grade. We all know that 10 is a gimmick and the difference between 9s and 10s is infinitesimal. It is also ironically the biggest price difference. Paying the biggest difference in price for the smallest difference in card is patently silly, so why give it any credence? That's like banging your head against the wall because someone out there, who's not you, is doing something ragingly stupid across the planet. Meanwhile there are tons of guys like you who know the real score whom you can hang with.

Seriously, a registry says Ruth's RC is his 33 Goudey. Equates one Joe DiMaggio 1940 PlayBall in PSA 5 as more valuable than a Zeenut Batting 2 and a 1937 OPC 2. Equates 10 commons in 10 to a Brett RC in truly deserving 10. With all these facts and more, to take it too seriously is the real mistake. If some people want to let a website tell them what to buy, and buy labels regardless of whether the card matches the grade, that's what they do in their backyard and I hope they have fun.

When it comes to the third party system, it definitely helps in some major ways. It's done good for the hobby. But we cannot let it get to us when we see things like this below...





Don't get me wrong: I think the other card is tremendous just for existing, and would be happy to own it. I just would not grade it higher than the other. But how crazy would it be for me to let that imbalance poison my passion for the former card?

Here's the kicker: the market speaks and at auction, side by side, the 1 will sell for more than the 2. Proof that collectors' eyes and votes are the final grade, not some sticker.

Heck, a few guys said the Brett 9 is better than the 10. That is all the validation that 9 or I need. Who wouldn't hold what fellow collectors say in higher esteem than what a sticker says? Trying to get a hardcore registry collector to concede that their 10 is not a 10 or as good as a 9 out there, that's not a realistic or productive goal. If a guy adores and takes huge pride in his 10 whose grade I don't see as correct, who am I to piss in his Cheerios? Now if he seeks me out and tries to flex and floss, then I will be happy to politely explain why I am not jocking a bad 10 or letting a set GPA tell me what's better. Then he'll probably see the light

Now let's turn to selling for a quick second. I applaud guys who know what the card is and price it based on their assessment. I recently paid DOUBLE VCP for a PSA 5 Mantle. The seller knew it was better than 6s and most 7s. He priced it that way. Along comes a collector like me who buys the card and not the holder. I paid his price, because I knew I could not find a better CARD for the price-- and the STICKER WAS UTTERLY IRRELEVANT, other than providing me with authentication and card protection.

Same thing with my Satchel. And same seller. He knew his 1.5 SP was superior to many higher grades. I agreed, and paid accordingly. I don't need the grade to change, not when-- for FREE-- I can get the grades from my fellow collectors, whom I respect the most. That's the salient point.

When time for resale, I say sure, take a review shot in the holder if you feel lucky and if the card really merits it. Again I think the TPGs overall are great for the hobby and most of the time do their best. And as collectors, the undergrades save us much money. We don't have to buy the overgrades. And when it's time to sell your 9 that you know looks as good as any 10, go ahead and price it like or near a 10. And tell prospective buyers politely that you're all about the card, and they can try and find a better one, but they won't be able to. And if they collect cards, they will agree and buy it. I'm proof it happens. And if they collect holders, so be it, their choice.

Lastly, if a card truly merits the grade, odds are, upon review, it will wind up where it rightfully belongs. No system is completely perfect; and if that grade does matter to someone and it was in error, there is a protocol in place to rectify that, as imperfect as it may be.

In the end, great cards speak for themselves, and we just need to put as much weight in our own opinions and each others' opinions, as in a TPG opinion. That's a real easy thing to do, and frees the mind up to enjoy the cards.

[MattyC]

Bill,

Of your three examples, I think the 8.5 and 9 are sharpest. I would probably buy the 8.5 if it was markedly lower than the 9. That represents value for the CARD. The grades look pretty accurate. I'd say the 8.5 is best, because I like his clean image (no cheek blemish), the centering, and whiter borders. But that I concede is a subjective call, as others may prefer the better edges and corners of the 9.

So the hair is very fine between the 8.5 and 9. How much is that hair worth? To me, not much. And I won't pay a big price difference for a small card difference. But to some guys, maybe the half grade up is worth much more, whether they need the 9 for their Registry GPA or just want to say they own the "better grade."

However it shakes out, what matters is that the winners are happy with their cards. If they are, all good.

When it comes to the bidding shenanigans, sniping is an amazing tool. It renders everything a best offer or card show scenario. You make you best offer and either it wins or it doesn't. I think retracting and shilling is bush league, but because I can't talk sense to those people, I won't be the dog barking at the bird. I will snipe and win what I want for my collection, namely undergraded classics, like THIS BAD BOY...

[MBMiller25]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill,

Of your three examples, I think the 8.5 and 9 are sharpest. I would probably buy the 8.5 if it was markedly lower than the 9. That represents value for the CARD. The grades look pretty accurate. I'd say the 8.5 is best, because I like his clean image (no cheek blemish), the centering, and whiter borders. But that I concede is a subjective call, as others may prefer the better edges and corners of the 9.

So the hair is very fine between the 8.5 and 9. How much is that hair worth? To me, not much. And I won't pay a big price difference for a small card difference. But to some guys, maybe the half grade up is worth much more, whether they need the 9 for their Registry GPA or just want to say they own the "better grade."

However it shakes out, what matters is that the winners are happy with their cards. If they are, all good.

When it comes to the bidding shenanigans, sniping is an amazing tool. It renders everything a best offer or card show scenario. You make you best offer and either it wins or it doesn't. I think retracting and shilling is bush league, but because I can't talk sense to those people, I won't be the dog barking at the bird. I will snipe and win what I want for my collection, namely undergraded classics, like THIS BAD BOY...

Did I just read that correctly? You were the winner of that card last night? I was watching that card. Hella Hard card! If you won it, Congrats to you. I am not sure most people realize how difficult that card is in any grade.

[MattyC]

Yup-- that was me with one bid: the last bid. Had to have it. Was spirited bidding at the end there. When I saw it listed my eyes bugged out, because the card NEVER surfaces in obtainable grade. The write up explained it, but eBay is not the optimum venue for the card as opposed to an REA or Goodwin, where the old school sharks patrol the waters. I think there are only around 30 in all grades. I've always loved the unique design of the piece and the write up on back. Joe D has three fresh and beasty hard early cards: the Zeenut, the v355, and this OPC. I love cards on VCP with next to no sales!

I think Joltin Joe's 56 would be impossible to break in today's media spotlight. It hasn't even been challenged, really. The man hardly ever struck out. I'm in awe of his baseball reference stats.

[MBMiller25]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yup-- that was me with one bid: the last bid. Had to have it. Was spirited bidding at the end there. When I saw it listed my eyes bugged out, because the card NEVER surfaces in obtainable grade. The write up explained it, but eBay is not the optimum venue for the card as opposed to an REA or Goodwin, where the old school sharks patrol the waters. I think there are only around 30 in all grades. I've always loved the unique design of the piece and the write up on back. Joe D has three fresh and beasty hard early cards: the Zeenut, the v355, and this OPC. I love cards on VCP with next to no sales!

I think Joltin Joe's 56 would be impossible to break in today's media spotlight. It hasn't even been challenged, really. The man hardly ever struck out. I'm in awe of his baseball reference stats.

He also got horizontal with Marilyn Monroe!

Congrats on another great pickup. Great card.

[MattyC]

Yup, any man who strikes out 13 times in a full season, has one of sports' most hallowed, unbreakable, celebrated records, and married the then-hottest woman on the face of the Earth...I mean, if that is not a player who MUST be represented in a collection, I don't know who is!

Also: 3 MVPs, 2 second place finishes, and a third place.

And MISSED three PRIME years for the war, at ages 28, 29, 30!!! Those are an athlete's prime seasons. I think many forget that. And the toughness of his cards kind of keeps him from really busting out in the hobby-- compared to say Mantle's inclusion as a high number in such a widely collected set,

JOE D WAS THE MAN! STATS.

[bobbyw8469]

Of the three George Kell 1957 Topps cards that sold last night.

The PSA 8 sold for $60 ($9 above VCP average)
The PSA 8.5 (which in my opinion was the nicest of the bunch) sold for $117.50 ($95 BELOW VCP average)
The PSA 9 sold for $658.30 ($11.91 above VCP average).

Those results only fuel my speculation that some funny stuff sometimes goes on with PWCC auctions). How could the best looking card of the three wind up selling for almost $100 under VCP average? Maybe the bidders weren't looking at all three cards?

[ALR-bishop]

If it is really just a hobby for someone, they do not care what a 3d party thinks about the cards they collect. When it comes to post war Topps or Fleer, I am confident I know more about those cards than anyone at a grading company. I do not need someone's seal of approval on what I collect

If cards were an investment for me, or an important part of my estate planning, that would be a different situation completely.

The only time I get down is when reading threads obsessing over what the grading companies are doing....only kidding, I just move on to something else more interesting to me.

I do think the post war regulars here are a great group and very much enjoy the cards that are posted and the ongoing exchange of information

[doug.goodman]

I was thinking about adding in a long dissertation with my thoughts about the people who get paid for their opinions, and the people who pay them, but I keep thinking about that Henderson thread that the 'stache" mentioned, and then the best I've got is :

"Haha! Best regards"

Insert smiley face here,
Doug