Bid Retractions - A Punk Move?

[the 'stache]

I've never once had a bid retraction. If I make a bid, I'm prepared to buy the card at that price. Period. If somebody wants to jack the price up, and I end up paying at the high end, or ceiling, well, I'm a firm believer that karma will get them. But I'm still within the amount I budgeted for the card.

I have a very big problem with the games people play on Ebay, and the hobby in particular, and it's turning me off to collecting.

[MattyC]

Bill, don't let it turn you off. See Miller's thread entitled COME ON!... There are philosophies we can employ, perspectives we can take, that really brush off those annoyances like so much dirt off Jay-Z's shoulder. Focus on the cards, brother! The cards never bothered nobody

[MyGuyTy]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill, don't let it turn you off. See Miller's thread entitled COME ON!... There are philosophies we can employ, perspectives we can take, that really brush off those annoyances like so much dirt off Jay-Z's shoulder. Focus on the cards, brother! The cards never bothered nobody

Words of wisdom

[the 'stache]

There is a general malaise that's pervasive in the hobby, Matt, and it is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth that I can't get rid of it. And it's not just just shill bidding, though that's part of it. The thread on the main forum about the Rickey Henderson PSA-graded rookies perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about. It's becoming less and less about the love of the hobby, and the sport, and more about greed and vanity. And I find it morally repugnant.

You've got people cracking cards out and resubmitting them Ad nauseam to do...what? Make a lot of money. The piece of cardboard is the same, yet if you submit a nine enough times, the law of averages states it will come back as a ten eventually. There's virtually no risk involved, either. It's not as if they're tickling the dragon's tail in order to realize this desired effect. No screw driver is going to slip. And every fiber of my being as a stock broker screams that there has to be some kind of risk involved in order to make money. Unless the card owner is a dope, and they drop the card, the likelihood that the card is going to be damaged, or lost en route to the tpg, is practically nil. They're just going to keep sending that damned card in until their card by chance finds a grader at the TPG who got some the night before, and pops a "10" into the computer while happily whistling their "I got some nookie" song. So, after the card owner subtracts the fees for submitting the card umpteenth times (and PSA says "thank you very much" for playing their profitable little game), they sell that ten at a massive markup to somebody who just has to have the very best, and will spend whatever amount is necessary to impress other people. Why? Because of the registry, which is nothing more than a dick-measuring contest. "Ha, my collection is 0.0135 better than yours because I spent an obscene amount of money to upgrade my Rickey Henderson card from a 9 to a 10!" These people don't care about the history behind the card, or the player. At their most base level, they are looking for validation. So, they'll spend a lot of money (and even more than they would have because some idiot is pumping up the price), and acquire their "ten", which is really a "nine" that just happened to find somebody in a generous mood. So who ends up getting screwed? The seller of the card? Nope. They took a $500 Henderson 9 and magically transformed it into a $10,000 + 10 with their persistence. Does the TPG lose? Nope. They made money every time they looked at the card. What about Mr. Vanity and his 10? Nope. He moved up in the registry, so he's happy. What about Mr. Consignment, who made a cool profit by having his second cousin Louie make a new Ebay account specifically to shill the price? He's happy, too, as he made more money. Ebay doesn't care, because 10% of more money is good for their bottom line. Paypal? They don't give a damn. They're getting their money, too.

It's the little guy, the guy that's perfectly happy to have his nine, or even *gasp* that worthless eight with the pimple only visible under a 100 x magnifying glass-he's the one getting bent over. Now, if he wants to get that nine, he has to pay a lot more money for it, because as the price of the ten goes up, by extension, the price of the next best card goes up, too.

I don't know, Matt. I feel like there's so many scams being run at the same time, it's making me dizzy. This isn't what the hobby is supposed to be.

[MattyC]

Bill,

The hobby is entirely what you make it, to you. It's about you and your collection, the pursuit of a card you have long wanted, finding that example that you know is The One, and sharing those cards and victories with fellow enthusiasts who appreciate them. It's about the joy the cards give you.

I believe it was Bob Marley who once said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." I take it to mean, don't make yourself upset over things far beyond your control.

Much of what you are talking about is The Registry Game and TPGs. We can choose to get upset about that-- about those actions others are taking-- or we can choose not to. Being upset in some cases is a simple choice. If some guy wants to pay 15k for a card that a grader has labeled "Number X," which many of us don't think is worthy of that grade, then hey, that's a guy and his money. And if his goal is to see his set rise in GPA over others, then that's a game some are playing. If people are happy, then cool.

If you put too much energy and focus on the TPG game, it can drive you nuts. It's like anything that gets SUBJECTIVELY graded or evaluated. It is not an exact science or math. For example, in college I once wrote a paper, handed it in, it got a C. I was LIVID. I just knew and believed the paper was much better. I later handed the SAME paper in to another teacher for another class, as the same novel was read for that other class. It got an A. I then realized the silly nature of subjectivity. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Take hit movies or TV shows, too. Also subjectively evaluated products. Seinfield and Sopranos for example were both rejected. The first buyers to hear those shows passed, essentially saying they were poor. Then other buyers heard the same pitch, but judged the product as gold.

I don't mind if many are out to profit on cards. They are often rare and desired by many and therefore valuable. People want to sell them and people want to buy them. If it turns you off that TPGs are so subjective, which in turn creates grey areas and opportunities for cards to bump, and in turn sell for exponentially higher prices to Registry guys, then one can collect raw, or embrace the best advice out there:

Buy the card and not the holder.

You grade the graders with your eyes and wallet. You pay what you want. If someone gets a lucky grade or a crappy grade, or if someone wants to pay big for a crappy 10, again it in no way influences your decisions and purchases-- which create your collection.

I think most savvy, experienced collectors do know that the smart buy is the undergraded card. That many deserving 10s can be found in 9 holders. But here's the salient point, for me: who needs a grader to tell them what they have? If I know my card in PSA 1, for example, is a better looking card than a "higher graded" 2 that is, say, OC with stains and creases, I don't need a grader to ever validate that or tell it to me.

The decisions and the power lie in your mind and your choices. What we let bother us, and what we simply choose to not let bother us.

Lastly, when it comes to scams, there are attempted scams everywhere. Look at insider trading on Wall Street, or pump and dumps. There's a shady element to almost anything that involves value. But the individual is always in charge of what they let bug them, and I for one simply refuse to let subjective grades or anything else affect the joy I get from collecting rare and beautiful pieces. It's just too much fun.

Anyways, hope those points help.

[the 'stache]

I keep going back to the feeling that the market, or in this case the hobby, is being manipulated. And while you and I, and a lot of other honest to goodness collectors aren't involved, we still get some of the associated stink on us. I know there are ways to avoid much of the BS that's going on, but it's hard for me to turn a blind eye to it all.

I'll be ok. Sometimes I just need to clear the air, and when I see something that I feel is unethical, I just boil over.

[bobbyw8469]

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

[MBMiller25]

Bill/Bobby and Matt you all make great comments.

Bill and Bobby, I was in a similar position as you about a year ago. I actually sold a good portion of my collection off because I was disgusted with what I was seeing in the hobby. Its funny, I wanted to know as much about this hobby as I could possibly know, and meet and have relationships with as many of the high end dealers that sell what I collect. What I didn't bargain for with this quest for knowledge is just how political this hobby is, and the games that are played all in the name of money and greed. I too, am guilty of this. A perfect example is having already high end cards reviewed because I felt they were under-graded and in my case I got burned. I did this because I thought I was being slighted, and didn't want to miss out on my piece of the pie. There are some great dealers/people in this hobby, honest as the day is long. There area also some scum in this hobby. Unfortunately anywhere there is money to be made, greed and corruption with follow. Its everywhere.

As Matt C has said much more eloquently than I am saying, this hobby is just that. Its a hobby. Its all about what you make of it. If you let every little thing you perceive as being a "wrong" upset you, your not going to have much fun, (which I presume is the case right now). Enjoy the hobby for what it is.
It is when I got to this point, that I stopped worry about everything else, and focused on what I enjoy in this hobby.

TPG is just that. Its an opinion from some guy/girl that probably doesnt know anymore about the hobby than we all know. Its just an opinion. Look at cards and buy what you like, what aesthetically pleases your eye, and don't worry about the rest.

When I stopped worry about the symantics surrounding the hobby and just focused on myself and the cards I enjoyed, this became a lot more fun for me. I hope it turns around for the both of you, I really enjoy both of you on these boards and reading/viewing what you have to share.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

Apologies for the back to back posts but just picking through the thread. This just goes to prove my point...

If you can get a card for 30 bucks that looks very similar to a card that sells for 15x more I very good value in the lower priced card.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

There is a general malaise that's pervasive in the hobby, Matt, and it is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth that I can't get rid of it. And it's not just just shill bidding, though that's part of it. The thread on the main forum about the Rickey Henderson PSA-graded rookies perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about. It's becoming less and less about the love of the hobby, and the sport, and more about greed and vanity. And I find it morally repugnant.

You've got people cracking cards out and resubmitting them Ad nauseam to do...what? Make a lot of money. The piece of cardboard is the same, yet if you submit a nine enough times, the law of averages states it will come back as a ten eventually. There's virtually no risk involved, either. It's not as if they're tickling the dragon's tail in order to realize this desired effect. No screw driver is going to slip. And every fiber of my being as a stock broker screams that there has to be some kind of risk involved in order to make money. Unless the card owner is a dope, and they drop the card, the likelihood that the card is going to be damaged, or lost en route to the tpg, is practically nil. They're just going to keep sending that damned card in until their card by chance finds a grader at the TPG who got some the night before, and pops a "10" into the computer while happily whistling their "I got some nookie" song. So, after the card owner subtracts the fees for submitting the card umpteenth times (and PSA says "thank you very much" for playing their profitable little game), they sell that ten at a massive markup to somebody who just has to have the very best, and will spend whatever amount is necessary to impress other people. Why? Because of the registry, which is nothing more than a dick-measuring contest. "Ha, my collection is 0.0135 better than yours because I spent an obscene amount of money to upgrade my Rickey Henderson card from a 9 to a 10!" These people don't care about the history behind the card, or the player. At their most base level, they are looking for validation. So, they'll spend a lot of money (and even more than they would have because some idiot is pumping up the price), and acquire their "ten", which is really a "nine" that just happened to find somebody in a generous mood. So who ends up getting screwed? The seller of the card? Nope. They took a $500 Henderson 9 and magically transformed it into a $10,000 + 10 with their persistence. Does the TPG lose? Nope. They made money every time they looked at the card. What about Mr. Vanity and his 10? Nope. He moved up in the registry, so he's happy. What about Mr. Consignment, who made a cool profit by having his second cousin Louie make a new Ebay account specifically to shill the price? He's happy, too, as he made more money. Ebay doesn't care, because 10% of more money is good for their bottom line. Paypal? They don't give a damn. They're getting their money, too.

It's the little guy, the guy that's perfectly happy to have his nine, or even *gasp* that worthless eight with the pimple only visible under a 100 x magnifying glass-he's the one getting bent over. Now, if he wants to get that nine, he has to pay a lot more money for it, because as the price of the ten goes up, by extension, the price of the next best card goes up, too.

I don't know, Matt. I feel like there's so many scams being run at the same time, it's making me dizzy. This isn't what the hobby is supposed to be.

I get what you're saying but don't agree at all that the competition for high graded slab hurts the low grade / mid grade collector. In fact I'd argue the opposite - the focus on the highest grade cards creates great value in mid grade cards. Lots of great cards sitting in mid grade holders that the raw guys and high grade guys won't buy.