Peyton Manning and Willie Mays

[Runscott]

Pete Maravich was probably the best player I ever saw, outside of Magic and Jordan. Maravich would score 40 and you never knew it. He played offense the way Dimaggio played defense - he was always in the right spot, so never looked too flashy. RIP

[Jim65]

I'm not sure who is the QB best ever, but I just can't give it to a guy with a losing playoff record.

[Runscott]

Just to put things in proper perspective,

John Elway was the same quarterback when he won two Superbowls, as he was when he lost three, but now he's great, and before the first win, we were hearing the exact same stuff we are hearing now about Manning. Anyone remember the comeback Elway led against the Browns in the AFC Championship game? Possibly the most incredible ever. That was clutch, and his team still got slaughtered that year in the Superbowl, by the Giants. Does anyone think Elway was somehow able to get it together for the 'unimportant' AFC Championship and be as great a quarterback as he was, but then 'choked' in the Superbowl? You have to deal with the guys around you, and the match-up you are given - the Broncos have not matched up well in most of their Superbowls, but except for Craig Morton, it wasn't for lack of having a great quarterback.

[t206trader]

It's silly to look at playoff record as the end all and be all of a "great" quarterback. Was Jim Kelly just mediocre for reaching the Super Bowl four times? Or how about Dan Marino who never won a Super Bowl? Even if Manning made the Super Bowl every year and lost, he would still have a winning playoff record yet people would complain about how he isn't the greatest because he never won "the big one" (this is of course speculative because as we all know Manning DID win the big one). I don't believe the playoff record hogwash as an indicator of an "elite" quarterback. Based on this logic is Trent Dilfer better than Manning because he went 5-1 in his career in the playoffs?

[Jim65]

Using playoff record to decide if a player is elite or great is hogwash, but using it as one of the factors in determining if he is the best ever is not.

[t206trader]

True, but in virtually every other statistic Manning will finish first. He's light years ahead of Montana in almost every indicator. It's always hard to compare modern quarterbacks with the likes of Unitas or early quarterbacks so an argument can be made but to say that Joe Montana is better because he had more Super Bowl wins is hardly fair. As of today, Peyton Manning and Joe Montana would have the exact same career spans in terms of seasons. Compare the stats, the numbers speak for themselves. When Favre took over the touchdown record it was clear that he wasn't the greatest based on his total package, including QPR, fumbles, and time it took to complete the record. Manning will pass Favre next year for touchdowns a full three seasons earlier than Favre completed the record (19 versus 16 not including Favre's Falcon year or Peyton's injured year.)

[Runscott]

Brandon, there are plenty of people who have seen both Montana and Manning play. Being one of them, my vote goes to Montana over anyone. I would also take Favre over Manning. I say that based on watching them play, not on Manning's 11-12 playoff record. Plus, it's just my opinion and I admittedly like the aesthetics of Montana's delivery - it looked like perfection to me.

[t206trader]

That's a fair assessment Scott. However you look at it, Montana and Manning have changed the way the game is played. Nobody ran the 2 minute drill like Joe Cool.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Plus, it's just my opinion and I admittedly like the aesthetics of Montana's delivery - it looked like perfection to me.

Couldn't agree with that comment more. Joe had a beautiful delivery, from the pocket or on the run.. He seemed to have a perfect efficiency in everything he did- smooth drop, great feet/pocket presence, underrated running ability and arm strength. Brady also has a beautiful, straight over the top delivery.. But nowhere near the overall physical fluidity of Joe. (conversely Manning and Marino motions always looked ugly yo me.. Clearly, this is no reflection on greatness, and with the uglier motions, they also both achieved lightning quickness.. IMO the ultimate combo of quick and pretty is Mike Vick's).

QB and football numbers are so tough to use as benchmarks... Especially yardage and TDs. So much is reliant on your team's philosophy, and so much of that philosophy is influenced by the era you played and what other teams did. The west coast offense in its early years had a great balance to it. For the era they threw a lot, but no one under Walsh or Seifert to follow through for 4000 yards.. Nor did they need to. They also huddled regularly and ran far fewer plays than these faster pace/call plays at the line type offenses today. In the context of a game though, either Montana or Young could pile up whatever numbers needed to win.. And they did with regularity.

Manning is an all time great, but I take Joe any time over him

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Pete Maravich was probably the best player I ever saw, outside of Magic and Jordan. Maravich would score 40 and you never knew it. He played offense the way Dimaggio played defense - he was always in the right spot, so never looked too flashy. RIP

Scott have you ever seen some of the Maravich highlight reels? He was as spectacularly flashy a player as ever played. Not that he wasn't also sound fundamentally and was certainly capable of the type of game you described, but he was also a human highlight film.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is a very interesting list.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...243155121.html

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott have you ever seen some of the Maravich highlight reels? He was as spectacularly flashy a player as ever played. Not that he wasn't also sound fundamentally and was certainly capable of the type of game you described, but he was also a human highlight film.

That's interesting - no, I was never much of a basketball fan, but my Dad took me to see the New Orleans Jazz any time they were in Denver, just because he loved Maravich. What impressed me was that Maravich was never flashy, and always scored tons of points. He just glided around the court and always seemed to be open. I'll have to take a look at him again.