You Guys See This E.Manning/NYG Fraud Story?

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I just googled HSI and it makes sense now - it's part of ICE.

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

Yes, we are under ICE, and were originally titled as ICE Special Agents, but over the last two years we have made a push to separate ourselves from ICE. We changed our badges, credentials, jackets and all other branding logo's to get rid of ICE from our name to HSI. The agency wants to make a push to show that we do much more than traditional immigration and custom related investigations. Seeing also that most of the negative press of "ICE Agents" raiding villages and separating families was from the poorly named title for the junior enforcement agents as "Immigration Enforcement Agents", who also called themselves ICE Agents for short, and our investigations division- which is totally separate from the Immigration enforcement division- were titled ICE Special Agents, and also commonly also referred to as ICE Agents. It led to a lot of bad press and false correlations that was taking away from the good the investigative agents were doing as the main investigative branch of DHS.

Therefore, we made a push to try and separate all entirely from ICE. It didn't work all that well, and instead we changed our division name from Office of Investigations, to Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). They also changed all our badges and credentials to re-title us HSI Special Agents and pulled ICE from everything.

Not that this is applicable at all to the thread discussion, but it might seem interesting to one or two of you.

Thanks for the info. I was in the Homeland Security Studies program at Tulane so I find it pretty interesting.

[drcy]

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[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

Now, if someone wanted to make a brand new and previously unknown issue using the old printing technology or if they had the original printing plates, that would be a different situation.

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.

[drcy]

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[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

Even if someone had the original printing plates, it would still be hard to make a passable T206 Honus Wagner counterfeit, even at the eye level. You still need card stock, aging, machine cut, inks, the correct look and printing skills. As Yogi Berra said, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Or as I say, "Anyone can write a novel. It's writing a good one that's hard."

I don't think the card stock would be the problem. I think that aging the front would. I bet you could find a way to scrub the front of a legit T206 with a proper back.

***I am not advocating counterfeiting but just saying it is possible.

[drcy]

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[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yes, and if they could create the technology in 1909, then, even though it's been abandoned now, it could certainly be created today. The problem is still what shows up under the microscope - there is not pattern to lithography, especially the intricate stuff they created in the late 1800's. They even had special jobs for 'painters' (wrong term I'm sure) who created all those beautiful but not predictable, dot patterns in the backgrounds.

From my meager knowledge of the process, it seems like re-creating these lithographs would be similar to forging a painting. I think you could do it, and even come up with, for example, a copy of a T206 Wagner that at first (or even second) glance would be almost exact, but if you looked at specific areas under a magnifier and compared, the forgery would be immediately noticed. But...plastic slabs could take care of that. Get it slabbed and it's probably safe from detection.

It's never been abandoned. The traditional methods are still used by artists, and while the details of the process have changed a bit the underlying process is unchanged. Recreating a card from the era would still be a challenge to get the materials just right, but I don't think it's impossible.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

How about this gem from the NYP article:

"A former Steiner Sports employee said Thursday that staffers of the memorabilia seller suspected that not all of the “game-used” gear was real. “Specifically, from Eli we would see it and say, ‘Come on, this is not ‘game used,’ ” the source said."

Yikes!

This reminds me of the Hillerich & Bradsby case I handled some years ago involving the Joe D. streak bat. Tommy Henrich vouched for the bat but questions popped up as to the details. Also reminds me of the controversy a few years ago about Don Larsen's uni from the perfect game. I hear stories all the time of how dear ol' granddad got someone's signature only to have it turn out to be secretarial or forged.

[Runscott]

Yes, and if honest mistakes can occur, like the three Clemente bats, then certainly when people are trying to pull the wool over our eyes, they should be having some success.

...but all my stuff is real because I'm special.