New Old Judge discovery

[Exhibitman]

FWIW, the boxing cards shown in the screen cap all have had their ads hacked off, so I assume that the same fate befell the two cards in question. Here are the Godfrey and Wilson cards as they should look:

[oldjudge]

Adam--what you are saying is not correct. The serpentine Gypsy Queen banner on the McDonald is in fact different than the serpentine banners on the boxers. Look closely and you will see this.

[dstudeba]

So I take it this was a private acquisition, or are these cards going to auction somewhere?

Also I think Adam was saying the boxers on the page were trimmed. It is therefore not a leap to assume that if the collector trimmed the boxers they would not have a problem trimming the California League cards.

[uffda51]

My house was built in 1905. I just checked my window seats . . . Zippo. Nada.

[oldjudge]

You should have bought the house on Linda Vista. That one is probably chock full of cards.

[Jeffrompa]

I don't think uniformity was the code of the day in the 1880's . Also , the photographic style is very much similar to the Old Judges and Gypsy Queens . The difference maybe because they were minor leaguers . Hopefully more minor leaguers will show up to clear some of the mystery . Mr Olbermann does a good job of wrapping the history around that early Era of cards .

[Joe_G.]

Extremely interesting!, I see I'm late to the party but still more to discuss here. What makes this confusing is that the newly discovered cards are shown differently throughout the segment. As mentioned, most of the scrapbook pages originate from the Cambridge collection which only contained 3 GQs in total. But it appears these new California League GQs were found amongst a treasure trove of GQs (attached below). If the image I've attached below is the true representation of the cards (no photoshopping), then I believe these are GQ cards w/ trimmed advertisement banner. The trim at bottom is tight and hence no evidence of the GQ banner. The card proportions appear correct to me, a bit wider than normal N175s. The un-photoshoped images also show a strong left border shadow that was typical of many Goodwin & Co. cards produced in 1888 and especially 1889 & 90 (including the McDonald GQ).

IF these are to be considered GQs, we are left with a dilemma of how to catalogue them. To date, all photographic cards from Goodwin & Co. are lumped together in the same Cartophilic listing. That is, Old Judges cigarette cards (N172), Old Judge cabinets (N173), and Gypsy Queens (N175 large & small) are lumped together to define the complete list of players, poses, and variations. However, every N175 and N173 player can be found as an N172. Now there are unique poses such as King Kelly portrait in street clothes that are not known as N172s (only known in cabinet form) BUT the N172 set really defines all the possible players (all 522 subjects - Wilson being the last addition).

The previously only known California League GQ is that of James McDonald. He also enjoys having a rare 1889 California League Old Judge card. When we wrote the book, we opted to catalogue the N172 as 308.5-1 and the GQ as 308.5-2 (see page 317). But these two most recent California League discoveries of Monte Clements and John Donovan are new players to Goodwin's photographic ensemble. So one could consider adding new player numbers of 79.5-1 for Monte Clements (between Jack Clements & Elmer Cleveland) and 129.5-1 (between Jim Donnelly and Charles Dooley) for John Donovan. I suspect most purist would require more evidence to prove these are Goodwin & Co. issued cards (i.e. GQs) via an untrimmed copy before adding Clements and Donovan to the list.

Another option would be to pull these three unique California League GQs into a set of their own and not catalogue them, cartophilically, with the other Goodwin & Co. issues. Those few who are going after an example of all the players would probably rather keep these separated and I don't blame them. Or you could just tell yourself you want an example of all the players that can be found on an N172 and just live with the fact that two numbers, 79.5 & 129.5, don't matter.

Regardless of how these cards are perceived, thank you KO for bringing these to light of the hobby in such a grand fashion. Assuming you read this, it would be great if you (KO) could share a little more information on these cards including high resolution scans that have not been photoshoped.

[oldjudge]

Joe-forgetting the technical numbering system for a second, these cards, if they are Gypsy Queens (you can't be 100% certain, although that is probably the case) are part of some Gypsy Queen subset. They are not small or large Gypsy Queens, but are, for lack of a better term, the phrase I used in the book, a medium Gypsy Queen. Their discovery does not change the number of members in the Old Judge set --there are still 522. It does increase the number of subjects in the Photographic Baseball Cards of Goodwin and Company to 524. Personally, if it could be verified that they were in fact Gypsy Queens, I would have no problem assigning numbers to them, the Cartophilic Society listing includes all of Goodwin's photographic cards. However, their discovery does not change the Old Judge set.
On a side note, it is interesting to see the many variations in the Gypsy Queen set. You have the large Gypsy Quuens which are very rare and whose method of distribution is still a mystery. You have the normal small Gypsy Queens which are much rarer than their Old Judge counterparts, probably due to the unpopularity of the Gypsy Queen cigarettes. And now you may have this California League Gypsy Queen set. Are we having fun yet?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by uffda51

My house was built in 1905. I just checked my window seats . . . Zippo. Nada.

I had a window seat put in a few years ago, nothing?? What gives?

This was a very cool piece on cards, thanks to Keith for taking something like our little world and making it mainstream if only for a few mins.

Cheers,

John

[Paul S]

The last time I had a window seat was when I flew Pan Am. All I found was a floatation vest

Seriously, I don't collect these cards but this thread is fascinating!

[oldjudge]

Joe-Spalding's book is Always on Sunday and there are rosters by year in the back of the book.