Maddux, Glavine, and the Big Hurt in the HOF

[packs]

Good class and nice that they go in with Bobby Cox. It's just too bad Smoltz didn't retire the same year. How great would that have been (assuming he gets elected)?

Is there a source reporting total votes for everyone? I can't seem to find one.

[Robextend]

MLB.COM

Player (Years on ballot) Total Votes Percentage
Greg Maddux (1) 555 97.2
Tom Glavine (1) 525 91.9
Frank Thomas (1) 478 83.7
Craig Biggio (2) 427 74.8
Mike Piazza (2) 355 62.2
Jack Morris (15) 351 61.5
Jeff Bagwell (4) 310 54.3
Tim Raines (7) 263 46.1
Roger Clemens (2) 202 35.4
Barry Bonds (2) 198 34.7
Lee Smith (12) 171 29.9
Curt Schilling (2) 167 29.2
Edgar Martinez (5) 144 25.2
Alan Trammell (13) 119 20.8
Mike Mussina (1) 116 20.3
Jeff Kent (1) 87 15.2
Fred McGriff (8) 67 11.7
Mark McGwire (8) 63 11.0
Larry Walker (4) 58 10.2
Don Mattingly (14) 47 8.2
Sammy Sosa (2) 41 7.2
Rafael Palmeiro (4) 25 4.4
Moises Alou (1) 6 1.1
Hideo Nomo (1) 6 1.1
Luis Gonzalez (1) 5 0.9
Eric Gagne (1) 2 0.4
J.T. Snow (1) 2 0.4
Armando Benitez (1) 1 0.2
Jacque Jones (1) 1 0.2
Kenny Rogers (1) 1 0.2
Sean Casey (1) 0 0.0
Ray Durham (1) 0 0.0
Todd Jones (1) 0 0.0
Paul Lo Duca (1) 0 0.0
Richie Sexson (1) 0 0.0
Mike Timlin (1) 0 0.0

[Big Six]

Thrilled for all three guys, especially Frank Thomas! But is anyone else amazed that next year that Don Mattingly is on the ballot for the 15th and FINAL time??? Boy, I'm getting old...

[packs]

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

[CMIZ5290]

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to the JAWS metric used by Baseball Reference, Kent is ranked 17th among second basemen, and Biggio 14th.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

It's up to the Hall of Fame, with some input from the players, but I'd be shocked if he didn't go in with the Braves. One more season in Atlanta, 510 more innings and he was much better with them. That should be enough to safely assume it's with Braves.

The Jeff Kent lack of support surprises me a little, though with ten maximum votes and at least 16 legit candidates, they created a logjam which won't clear up next year with Randy Johnson, John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez all on the ballot. They will replace the three guys that fell off, plus 400 other votes will open up from Jack Morris and others that received under 5% of the votes.

I've said this before, but now that he dropped off the ballot, it needs to be said again. Rafael Palmeiro may have done steroids, but I think he got screwed big time by Miguel Tejada.

First you have when he failed a test. It was after all eyes were on him. It was after he announced he was retiring. It was after he had his milestones and his team was eliminated. There was literally no reason for him to take steroids. He didn't even need to be playing when he did, he could have cut out early with zero on the line.

Then you have Tejada, who has failed two tests and was caught buying large supplies on PEDs and he claimed what he gave him was a B12 shot.

So now everyone is basing Palmeiro being guilty on the fact that he failed at a moment when he had zero to gain from cheating and his positive test came from one of the biggest known cheats(between his failed tests and supplies he bought). Tejada also lied about his age and he was banned from Winter ball for owning part of one team and playing against them. He has done so much wrong in baseball, why would anyone believe him on any subject.

Like I said, I still think Palmeiro did something prior to being caught but common sense screams that he was screwed by Tejada back then. Who knows what would have happened without that failed test, but I sincerely doubt he would be off the ballot now after reaching 3000 hits and 500 homers.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Does anyone know how Maddox will go in, Braves or Cubs?

I'm certain as a Brave.

[VoodooChild]

How is Biggio not in yet? How can they justify voting nobody in last year when a guy with 3,000+ hits, including hitting more doubles than any other right-handed batter ever, all while playing THREE of the most difficult and physically demanding positions C, 2B, CF, was on the ballot. And then for him to not get in this year was a total snub. I'm sure he'll get in next year, but still felt like ranting a little. I just really appreciated the way he played the game....Old School.

[Robextend]

Don't wanna argue too much on Biggio v Kent, but Kent batted 290 for his career vs Biggio's 280 which tells you that Biggio was a bit of a compiler...his last 6 or so years he hit more homers than he usually did, but his peripheral numbers kind of stunk.

The only 2B in history with more RBI (1,518) than Kent are Hornsby and Lajoie. And I could be wrong but I believe he has the most HRs ever by a 2B.

In any event, Biggio will get in next year and it looks like Kent never will.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think McGriff was hurt by not being associated with any one team. His numbers compare quite favorably to, for example, Andre Dawson, and look a lot better than Cepeda or Tony Perez.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think any PED suspicion around Kent would be very suspicious in its own right. He (along with Glavine) were among the first to go on record and demand testing, etc. He was a "red ass" and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, but absolutely deserves the vote. Think he'll get in eventually.

Very happy for Thomas.. he was just about the best all around hitter (prior to DH years) in baseball for a time and was one of few in the very early '90's that combined high BP/OBP with power (seems like everyone did from about 1994 on.. but he was tops before that).

Also really bugs me that Crime Dog is virtually a forgotten man. Never heard any PED rumors there and for a time from the late '80's into mid-late '90s he was the most consistently good power hitter in baseball. I will never forget how his aquisition and Aug/Sep hitting offensively carried the Braves past my 103 win Giants in the 1993 West Race. Didn't have those fluke (or juice) induced 50 plus HR breakouts, but ALWAYS hit over 30. Compared to Tony Perez, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda, Yaz, etc I have no idea why he's not getting more consideration.

Crime Dog had the bad luck to have his best season during the strike year of 1994. He was on pace for about fifty HRs which would not only given him the huge year voters love but also would have put him over 500 for his career.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

Surprised by Mussina myself, getting so little of the vote. Read an article recently that showed he compared very favorably to Glavine. Adjusting to leagues and opponents he actually out-performs Glavine in many categories.

Difference is, Glavine has the Cy Youngs and 300 Wins, and Mussina doesn't. Also surprising how much better of a WHIP, Mussina had then Glavine.

[Donscards]

I am surprised that Mike Piazza didnt get in What a great hitting catcher---I also agree Don Mattingly should get more respect--only problem with him, injuries hurt him------talking of First Baseball---when will the Old Timers select Gil Hodges!---and also go check out Ted Kluzszewski stats for 5 years in the early 50's--for 5 years, he put up HOF stats.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Donscards

I am surprised that Mike Piazza didnt get in What a great hitting catcher---I also agree Don Mattingly should get more respect--only problem with him, injuries hurt him------talking of First Baseball---when will the Old Timers select Gil Hodges!---and also go check out Ted Kluzszewski stats for 5 years in the early 50's--for 5 years, he put up HOF stats.

Gil Hodges was so good that a lot of people think he is in the Hall of Fame. My grandfather was a baseball fan his whole life, he assumed Hodges was in when we went there. My dad didn't really see much of him, but from what he heard, he thought he was in already. When I was at the HOF, I heard a small group of older people say they couldn't find his plaque and they guessed they missed it. I didn't break the news to them.

He played in seven World Series, had seven straight 100 RBI seasons, eight time all-star. He won three Gold Gloves, an award they didn't have during his first ten seasons and he missed two years to WWII after making his debut.

I'd also throw him a bone for managing 1969 Mets and the fact he started as a catcher, not that I think he needs either footnote to get in.

[frankbmd]

I've got a 1988 Fleer HOF RC of Tom Glavine for sale. Accepting offers.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I've got a 1988 Fleer HOF RC of Tom Glavine for sale. Accepting offers.

Frank- is it a PSA 10 or SGC 98?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

No argument by me regarding the 3 that got in. I'm a bit surprised Biggio and Piazza got snubbed again, but then electing 5 players into the Hall would seem a bit much.

[h2oya311]

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

[howard38]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

Bonds didn't hit behind Kent. The usual batting order had Bonds third and Kent fourth. It was still a benefit to Kent but not the kind you might see if pitchers grooved pitches to him because they were afraid to walk him.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking...

Along with his 521 homers (which he hit without any artificial help), Big Frank had the third highest OBP among right-handed hitters of all time, and the 14th highest OPS period! Early in his prime, virtually all of the Sox's games were on WGN, and I watched everyone of his at bats. This guy had the consistency and all-fields power of Cabrera, and walked like Mantle and Williams! One of only seven players to have more than 1500 RBI and 1000 BB (and one of those was Bonds, who is in an altogether different category). What would have been shocking is if he wouldn't have gotten in on the first ballot!

Regards,

Larry

[gman]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Big Frank... had the consistency and all-fields power of Cabrera, and walked like Mantle and Williams! One of only seven players to have more than 1500 RBI and 1000 BB

As did Jeff Bagwell have the hot to all field consistency until his right shoulder became bone on bone. He, too, is one of the seven with 1500 RBI and 1000 BB. Bagwell was also one of the smartest base runners during his time in the big leagues. He also played an exceptional first base.

This was in the Houston Chronicle this morning, "Bobby Cox, the Braves manager who is entering the Hall of Fame this year alongside his two former pitchers, said on Wednesday that he’s bothered “a lot” by the accusations toward Biggio and his absence from the Hall class.

“There’s two guys in this game, opposing players, that I fell in love with,” Cox told MLB Network Radio. “(Jeff) Bagwell was one, and Biggio was the other. Just the way they conducted themselves on the field, they were leaders and great ballplayers.”"

Both were respected by their piers because of the way they played the game and the respect that had towards the game.

Bagwell should also be in the Hall.

In my opinion, the Hall of Fame needs to revamp the entire election process. They need to thin out the number of individuals allowed to vote.