Maddux, Glavine, and the Big Hurt in the HOF

[h2oya311]

Frank Thomas is in! First ballot. Shocking! Biggio gets snubbed again w/ 74.8%!!

Not shocking is that Maddux and Glavine got in.

And the BBW who voted for Kenny Rogers and/or Armando Benitez and/or Jacque Jones should be barred from ever voting again (or shot on the spot).

[packs]

Good class and nice that they go in with Bobby Cox. It's just too bad Smoltz didn't retire the same year. How great would that have been (assuming he gets elected)?

Is there a source reporting total votes for everyone? I can't seem to find one.

[Robextend]

MLB.COM

Player (Years on ballot) Total Votes Percentage
Greg Maddux (1) 555 97.2
Tom Glavine (1) 525 91.9
Frank Thomas (1) 478 83.7
Craig Biggio (2) 427 74.8
Mike Piazza (2) 355 62.2
Jack Morris (15) 351 61.5
Jeff Bagwell (4) 310 54.3
Tim Raines (7) 263 46.1
Roger Clemens (2) 202 35.4
Barry Bonds (2) 198 34.7
Lee Smith (12) 171 29.9
Curt Schilling (2) 167 29.2
Edgar Martinez (5) 144 25.2
Alan Trammell (13) 119 20.8
Mike Mussina (1) 116 20.3
Jeff Kent (1) 87 15.2
Fred McGriff (8) 67 11.7
Mark McGwire (8) 63 11.0
Larry Walker (4) 58 10.2
Don Mattingly (14) 47 8.2
Sammy Sosa (2) 41 7.2
Rafael Palmeiro (4) 25 4.4
Moises Alou (1) 6 1.1
Hideo Nomo (1) 6 1.1
Luis Gonzalez (1) 5 0.9
Eric Gagne (1) 2 0.4
J.T. Snow (1) 2 0.4
Armando Benitez (1) 1 0.2
Jacque Jones (1) 1 0.2
Kenny Rogers (1) 1 0.2
Sean Casey (1) 0 0.0
Ray Durham (1) 0 0.0
Todd Jones (1) 0 0.0
Paul Lo Duca (1) 0 0.0
Richie Sexson (1) 0 0.0
Mike Timlin (1) 0 0.0

[Big Six]

Thrilled for all three guys, especially Frank Thomas! But is anyone else amazed that next year that Don Mattingly is on the ballot for the 15th and FINAL time??? Boy, I'm getting old...

[packs]

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

I am with you on Kent, one of the top offensive 2B of all time. Could his awful relationship with the press be a factor? If it is, that's just nonsense, but I can't think of anything else. I can't recall him ever coming under PED suspicion.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by packs

At least he got more than Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm very surprised at how little support Mussina and Jeff Kent got.

What's the story with Kent? Do people think he juiced? Aside from Sandberg, I can't think of a better second baseman during his prime.

Surprised by Mussina myself, getting so little of the vote. Read an article recently that showed he compared very favorably to Glavine. Adjusting to leagues and opponents he actually out-performs Glavine in many categories.

Difference is, Glavine has the Cy Youngs and 300 Wins, and Mussina doesn't. Also surprising how much better of a WHIP, Mussina had then Glavine.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

No argument by me regarding the 3 that got in. I'm a bit surprised Biggio and Piazza got snubbed again, but then electing 5 players into the Hall would seem a bit much.

[h2oya311]

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

[howard38]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking.

As for 2nd basemen, I'd take Biggio over Kent almost any time. Both benefitted from having awesome players batting behind them, but Kent REALLY benefitted from having Bonds batting behind him. And I'm sure his association w/ Bonds (at least by being on the same team) hurt him in voting as well. Guilty by association.

I can't tell, but it was either 1 or 2 votes more that Biggio needed in order to get in. Disgusting!

Bonds didn't hit behind Kent. The usual batting order had Bonds third and Kent fourth. It was still a benefit to Kent but not the kind you might see if pitchers grooved pitches to him because they were afraid to walk him.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not surprised that Thomas got in, but expected it to be a few years. I guess I'm just surprised that this is really the first "DH" to get in, and to do it in "first ballot" style is shocking...

Along with his 521 homers (which he hit without any artificial help), Big Frank had the third highest OBP among right-handed hitters of all time, and the 14th highest OPS period! Early in his prime, virtually all of the Sox's games were on WGN, and I watched everyone of his at bats. This guy had the consistency and all-fields power of Cabrera, and walked like Mantle and Williams! One of only seven players to have more than 1500 RBI and 1000 BB (and one of those was Bonds, who is in an altogether different category). What would have been shocking is if he wouldn't have gotten in on the first ballot!

Regards,

Larry

[the 'stache]

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

355 wins
3.16 ERA in the steroid era
3,371 K

1.8 BB/9 IP (second lowest of any pitcher in the modern era)
59.44 Win Probability Added, second all-time for pitchers behind only Roger Clemens

4 consecutive Cy Young Awards
5 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Greg Maddux never had an overpowering fastball. He outsmarted and outplayed his opponents. He's one of the most consistently great players to ever step on the diamond, yet 16 people thought he wasn't worthy of induction on the first ballot?

Edit:

For the record, I am glad that Glavine made it (no surprise there), and Thomas, too. That was a bit of a surprise, but well deserved in my opinion. I do think that Biggio should be in.

I am also agree with the voters on Jack Morris. I don't think he is a Hall of Famer. A 3.90 ERA in an era that slightly favored pitchers just doesn't impress me.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

+1

[packs]

Plus 1 from me too. These voters had the opportunity to watch his entire career, one that mirrored pitchers of a century ago. Why would you not vote for him? To be able to say you didn't vote for Greg Maddux? Who would be impressed?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by tschock

+1

+2...

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?
.

Maybe they focused too much on his losing record in the postseason.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Maybe they focused too much on his losing record in the postseason.

Yeah, 11-14. Pretty bad. I can see where, for these writers, Mathewson and Johnson's mediocre .500 post season record would have given them pause to vote for them as well.

[t206blogcom]

Glad to see Maddux get in, but a bit surprised his vote percentage wasn't higher. Anyone who didn't vote for Maddux should be barred from future voting in my opinion.

I knew Glavine would get in, but a little surprised he did so on his first ballet. I agree with some other posts that by the time be moved to NY, he was pretty much done. I sat behind home for a game while he was in NY and let's just say he fell short of his glory days. While I'm happy he's in, I think he should've been voted in after a year or two on the ballet to humble him a little. I can remember meeting him when he was in his prime at a card show in Richmond (along with Hank Aaron). He was such an ass and extremely cocky. Great pitcher, but too hung up on himself for me to be a big fan.

Congrats to Frank Thomas, but I'm very surprised it didn't take him 3-5 tries. Jack Morris, well, 3.90 just doesn't cut it in my book.

[packs]

Surprised to hear your story about Glavine. I used to go to Braves spring training every year and he was always a great signer and nice guy.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by tschock

Yeah, 11-14. Pretty bad. I can see where, for these writers, Mathewson and Johnson's mediocre .500 post season record would have given them pause to vote for them as well.

I agree, that is pretty bad.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Maybe they focused too much on his losing record in the postseason.

Anything's possible, Mike. But if a Hall of Fame voter uses a pitcher's win-loss record as the sole basis for their decision, then they shouldn't be voting in the first place. Maddux might have had a losing postseason record, but if you look closer, he was actually quite good. He pitched in 35 postseason games, and had a 3.27 ERA. Not much difference from his 3.16 regular season ERA, really.

I bet if we delved deeper, a lot of those losses should not be blamed on Maddux.

Edit: by the way, Jack Morris, who was supposed to be the post season great, had a 3.80 ERA in extra play. Again, very close to his career 3.90 ERA in the regular season. Yet he had a 7-4 record in the playoffs.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What I want to know is who are the 16 idiots that didn't have Greg Maddux on their ballots? Seriously?

355 wins
3.16 ERA in the steroid era
3,371 K

1.8 BB/9 IP (second lowest of any pitcher in the modern era)
59.44 Win Probability Added, second all-time for pitchers behind only Roger Clemens

4 consecutive Cy Young Awards
5 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Greg Maddux never had an overpowering fastball. He outsmarted and outplayed his opponents. He's one of the most consistently great players to ever step on the diamond, yet 16 people thought he wasn't worthy of induction on the first ballot?

Edit:

For the record, I am glad that Glavine made it (no surprise there), and Thomas, too. That was a bit of a surprise, but well deserved in my opinion. I do think that Biggio should be in.

I am also agree with the voters on Jack Morris. I don't think he is a Hall of Famer. A 3.90 ERA in an era that slightly favored pitchers just doesn't impress me.

Bill,

Well said, but unfortunately there are voters who absolutely REFUSE to vote anyone in on their first ballots (for whatever stupid reasons they have come up with). Think about it Greg, how can ANYONE not vote for Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Mathewson, Wagner, DiMaggio, Aaron , Mays, Williams, Seaver, Carlton...etc, etc, etc. Nobody ever achieved a 100% vote and no one EVER will. Wrong...yes...but it is what it is!

Joe T.

[Big Six]

I think it's more about accountability...voters should have to make their votes public and stand by them...


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[z28jd]

I know the one thing with Maddux that some people pointed to is his 18 gold gloves and I'm glad it was highlighted above. What I don't understand though, is if that is a significant accomplishment, why do 16 gold gloves do absolutely nothing for Jim Kaat? You figure 283 wins would give you a pretty good shot at the Hall even if you were the worst fielding pitcher ever

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I know the one thing with Maddux that some people pointed to is his 18 gold gloves and I'm glad it was highlighted above. What I don't understand though, is if that is a significant accomplishment, why do 16 gold gloves do absolutely nothing for Jim Kaat? You figure 283 wins would give you a pretty good shot at the Hall even if you were the worst fielding pitcher ever

Good point. Not saying Kaat should be an automatic HOFer but I don't think he got the respect he should have when compared in history.
Drew