1991 Topps / DS Packaging

[Zach Wheat]

There actually is a way to eliminate it as a regular issue 1991 Topps pack; however, there is no way to conclusively prove it is a DS pack with certainty. They used 2 types of ink in the production run that are similar but not identical.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

Zach--If there is a way to eliminate it as a a regular pack, what would be left besides a DS pack ? Possible counterfeit ? In know there is different printing/ink on many 91 cards, is the same true of the packs ?

[Zach Wheat]

Most of the 1991 Topps cards were printed with 2 different variations of one of the colors of ink. There was a previous post on Net54 which noted this, but I can't seem to find the original post.

Most - but not all - of the Desert Shield cards I've checked were printed with only 1 variation of this ink. The ink is actually visible - and distinguishable from the other type of ink - through the packaging. It is hard to pick up but you can clearly make out the differences.

This does not eliminate packs that aren't Desert Shield packs entirely, but greatly reduces the chances of picking up a regular issue pack. I just scanned 140 DS cards and only 2 cards had the earlier version of ink.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

Ok, so you are scanning for the cards themselves, not the pack itself ?

[Zach Wheat]

Yes, correct. You can see the ink under certain conditions through the wrapper which means that there is a correspondingly greater or lesser chance that the pack contains DS cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Yes, correct. You can see the ink under certain conditions through the wrapper which means that there is a correspondingly greater or lesser chance that the pack contains DS cards.

I have 3 DS printing error cards and would like the ink info if you would share it. I looked at mine under "certain conditions" and they are the bright orange/red compared to the burgundy color of some regular issue cards.

The ink on the regular 91's are strange. Some glow on the back some do not and some glow on the front and some do not. The strange part is they can be any combination of front/back glowing not glowing under a BL. I even found a few that the whole front of the card glows, not just the yellow.

[4reals]

Ben, what Mr. Wheat is referring to is the reflective red "glow" ink used on the back of some of the 91 Topps cards. If you shine a black light on the back of regular 91 Topps cards you will find some that glow and some that do not. This is from two different types of ink used during the printing process. I know you're somewhat aware of this from your 91 Topps Nolan Ryan post back in November. I first learned about this variation (some may argue that definition) after reading an unsuspecting post made by Steve B years ago. It was glossed over at the time (at least no one replied to it) but it surely caught my eye. I literally became obsessed with understanding which cards it affected and which cards it did not, researching it for the last couple of years, buying thousands and thousands of 91 cards, breaking different product from different packaging. Last September I bought a house and packed away all that product away and haven't unpacked it since (on purpose). Taking a break from it snapped me out of the OCD spiral I was in. I'm done researching it...it's time to share what I learned and pass the baton, letting others run with it. Zach was one of the first I decided to share this glow ink info with, which I did recently after reading his passion for DS cards.

All of that back story to tell you this, one of the most important nuggets of info I discovered was that ALL 91 DS cards were printed with glow reflective ink. In my opinion this was a huge discovery because of the existing problem with counterfeit DS cards. If you shine a blacklight on the back of a DS card and it does not glow it would mean (in my unprofessional opinion) that it is a counterfeit. Having said that, one must keep in mind that this is not a fool proof way of eliminating all counterfeits because a counterfeiter may also use a regular 91 Topps card with glow ink to make a counterfeit. It is at least a new way to weed some of the counterfeits out.

So, hopefully Zach doesn't mind me speaking for him when I say, that's what he meant when he said...

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

Most - but not all - of the Desert Shield cards I've checked were printed with only 1 variation of this ink. The ink is actually visible - and distinguishable from the other type of ink - through the packaging. It is hard to pick up but you can clearly make out the differences.

This does not eliminate packs that aren't Desert Shield packs entirely, but greatly reduces the chances of picking up a regular issue pack.

When I have more time I will start a 1991 Topps Glow thread and reveal many more of my findings in detail along with a master checklist I created. It has grown quite big when you consider the compound variations of errors, sheet codes, and the bold and faint logo on the back.

Here's a pic

[ALR-bishop]

I have a Desert Shield set, and they do all glow. And I can confirm I have both glow and non glow cards in my regular 91 set.

I have mentioned before that I think the 1991 set has more variations and or print defects than any other Topps set by far. At one time I was thinking of trying to put together a true master set and checklist, but have given up. I think I do have all the bold 40 emblem cards and many of the front and back differences. But am not sure precisely how many of the cards can be found with glow ink or if the entire set can be made in all non glow ink. Nor did I get very far on the back sheet page code variants.

If someone out there has what they think is a complete master checklist, I would love to see it

[Zach Wheat]

Joe,

Thanks for responding. I really wanted you to chime in on this topic before going further. First Ben has indicated some of the fronts glow - which I had never checked before - in both sets. A new discovery every day.

Second, I will have to re-check my results on the DS set as both Sheet A & Sheet B are different than the other sheets, but I don't think all DS cards flouresce under black light. I think the majority of the cards flouresce - ie maybe 95%, but not all.

I believe most of the way through the print run for 1991 Topps cards, they switched inks and added a brightener to the orange ink and probably other colors as well. The brightener enhanced orange ink is most obvious (under UV light) around the 40th Anniversary logo on the perimeter orange box on the reverse of the cards. And yes you can detect the differences in the ink through the back of the wrapper. This importance of this, is that it should allow you to reduce the probability of obtaining a fake DS pack.

I will chime back in later with a more details on flourescing ink on DS cards.

Z Wheat

[ALR-bishop]

I admit I did not check every card in the my DS set. I have them in sheets in a binder and sampled every couple of pages through out. The ones I looked at all glowed. I tried to check the unopened pack I keep with that set but can not view the back of the card clearly through the wrapper to see it under a black light

[4reals]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I think I do have all the bold 40 emblem cards and many of the front and back differences. But am not sure precisely how many of the cards can be found with glow ink or if the entire set can be made in all non glow ink.

I have put together both a complete glow set and a complete non-glow set without bold back logos. Bold back logos were found only on A & B sheet cards. Putting together a glow set is the easier of the two because I also found in my research that every factory set I purchased (approx. 10) had only glow back cards. Perhaps others can check their 91 factory sets as well to confirm this. In my opinion this would mean a much smaller number of non-glow sets exist since they would have to be put together by hand. While non glow sets may be in smaller quantities than the glow sets, I have not found that to be the case with singles obtained through packaged product (packs). I have gone through a ton of rack packs, cello packs, wax packs, vending boxes, etc. and found that the glow backs outnumbered the non-glow backs by about 60-40.

I have also put together a complete non-glow set with bold back logos. I am, however, still missing some glow back/bold back cards leaving that set incomplete. I am 100% confident they exist I just haven't come across a few of them. In the 20,000+ 91s I've obtained I have about twice as many non-glow bold backs as I do glow bold backs. This leads me to believe the glow back bold back cards are the most difficult to obtain.

The glow back / bold back cards that still need to be confirmed are:

#144, 271, 502, 505, 532, 542, 546, 563, 564, 574, 591, 610, 667, 671, 727, 746, 768, 774, 783, 792.

I think it's weird these are all in the upper portion of the set. What likely happened is that I have them but I misplaced them in a pile of cards or misfiled them or something. Nevertheless, they're unconfirmed. If anyone has duplicates of these and wants to put together their own set I would be happy to trade with them.

I'm not going to start a new thread like I mentioned before, I'll just keep adding more info on this one since the momentum is moving pretty good.

Here's a pic of bold logo backs vs. non-bold logo or faint (screened) logo backs:

Bio boxes on back can also be found in red or a faint pink but they have no distinct correlation to sheet codes like the 40 logo, it's just a random print abnormality. I chose not to include them on the master set list I created which I'll make available to everyone once I fine tune it a little.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

I have put together both a complete glow set and a complete non-glow set without bold back logos. Bold back logos were found only on A & B sheets............This leads me to believe the glow back bold back cards are the most difficult to obtain.

Joe,

The DS set is different but you've mentioned an important point. Sheets A & B have the bold 40th Anniversary logos....and sheets C-F have the faint version of the same logo. However, the DS set is consistent with your comments above that the rarest cards come with a bold logo (ie sheets A and B); however the faint variation or non glowing back is the rarest in the DS set.

Oddly, I have a hybrid card which happens to be the Chipper Jones card which first spurred your initial email to me. It is a Sheet F card, like all Chipper Jones cards, with both glowing and non-glowing portions of the Anniversary logo.

Z Wheat

[steve B]

Thanks for posting a picture! I've been needing to take one for a long time now, and just never did get to it.

And good to know the DS only come one way.

Also good to know the old post got people looking.

91Topps is a massively complex set. I got partway through making a list of the stuff I found, then got sidetracked. The backs come a number of ways beyond the dark/light logo fluorescent/non fluorescent stuff.

I believe all the cards will come with.
Light logo fluorescent
light logo non fluorescent

And that all the dark logo cards can also be found both ways.

The tougher ones are less clear.
There's a version of ink which is slightly fluorescent, appearing a very dark red under a blacklight. I've only found a few, and the look is subtle enough to miss. I think the whole set can be found this way, but I don't have enough cards to be sure. The light I used at the time was a fairly strong dual band one made for stamp collectors. I'm not sure if the lower power lights will make it visible. I've switched to a lower power light since the big one is broken and costs around $150 to replace. The big light was enough to easily see the normal difference without the room being dark an overcast day was plenty.

On a handful, the cardboard itself fluoresces, usually a light purplish white. It's not entirely consistent, and I have few enough of those that I can't rule out some sort of contamination or staining. Either could happen after production, or during printing or even in the cardboard making process.

I haven't looked at the fronts much at all with the blacklight.
But I have a couple cards where the glosscoat fluoresces a faint green.


Playing with the blacklight can be loads of fun, but anyone doing it should limit their exposure. It's not great for the eyes, and for some people longer exposure can cause headaches.

Originally Posted by 4reals

Ben, what Mr. Wheat is referring to is the reflective red "glow" ink used on the back of some of the 91 Topps cards. If you shine a black light on the back of regular 91 Topps cards you will find some that glow and some that do not. This is from two different types of ink used during the printing process. I know you're somewhat aware of this from your 91 Topps Nolan Ryan post back in November. I first learned about this variation (some may argue that definition) after reading an unsuspecting post made by Steve B years ago. It was glossed over at the time (at least no one replied to it) but it surely caught my eye. I literally became obsessed with understanding which cards it affected and which cards it did not, researching it for the last couple of years, buying thousands and thousands of 91 cards, breaking different product from different packaging. Last September I bought a house and packed away all that product away and haven't unpacked it since (on purpose). Taking a break from it snapped me out of the OCD spiral I was in. I'm done researching it...it's time to share what I learned and pass the baton, letting others run with it. Zach was one of the first I decided to share this glow ink info with, which I did recently after reading his passion for DS cards.

All of that back story to tell you this, one of the most important nuggets of info I discovered was that ALL 91 DS cards were printed with glow reflective ink. In my opinion this was a huge discovery because of the existing problem with counterfeit DS cards. If you shine a blacklight on the back of a DS card and it does not glow it would mean (in my unprofessional opinion) that it is a counterfeit. Having said that, one must keep in mind that this is not a fool proof way of eliminating all counterfeits because a counterfeiter may also use a regular 91 Topps card with glow ink to make a counterfeit. It is at least a new way to weed some of the counterfeits out.

So, hopefully Zach doesn't mind me speaking for him when I say, that's what he meant when he said...





When I have more time I will start a 1991 Topps Glow thread and reveal many more of my findings in detail along with a master checklist I created. It has grown quite big when you consider the compound variations of errors, sheet codes, and the bold and faint logo on the back.

Here's a pic