Graded Spalding Cut out Pictures/Revisited

[barrysloate]

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am opposed to grading something (actually I am opposed to grading period) that has been destroyed but in the case of some of the old Spalding and Reach Guides, many are offered in rough shape or in pieces.

I keep a chart on eBay prices and you can find a beat up 1909 for under $50 quite often. Like Phil offered a VG copy with covers can be had for $75 or so.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

I quit trying to save the world from making bad decisions. If someone wants to buy a cutout that is labeled as a cutout more power to them. I do understand the debate, which is that it sort of "legitimatizes" them but if labeled correctly then people need to be smart enough to know it's only a page from a book. BTW, I have some Supplements I like quite a bit. Here is a larger Supplement that I bought the smaller cut out to go with...It is approximatly 11 x 15, quite large...

[ksfarmboy]

Leon, that larger photo was cut out of a book too.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ksfarmboy

Leon, that larger photo was cut out of a book too.

I am aware of it. I shouldn't have really called it a Supplement though it's quite large. It was taken from a large folio magazine. It was under $90 and would look great framed. I don't think I overpaid for it but if I did it isn't in the top 1000 financial mistakes I have made. All that matters to me is that I knew what I was buying and was happy with the price.

[nolemmings]

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

Very well put.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

I quit trying to save the world from making bad decisions. If someone wants to buy a cutout that is labeled as a cutout more power to them. I do understand the debate, which is that it sort of "legitimatizes" them but if labeled correctly then people need to be smart enough to know it's only a page from a book. BTW, I have some Supplements I like quite a bit. Here is a larger Supplement that I bought the smaller cut out to go with...It is approximatly 11 x 15, quite large...

Hey Leon- I tend to agree somewhat that if somebody wants to buy them they are free to do so. But the person likely to pay several hundred dollars for one of these cutouts probably is doing so in error, thinking they are worth more than they really are. If you tried to sell just the cutout without the slab, you might get five or ten bucks for it. But put it in a slab, it suddenly becomes something else. Yes, anyone can buy anything he wants, but the grading companies should reject them as not slabbable.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hey Leon- I tend to agree somewhat that if somebody wants to buy them they are free to do so. But the person likely to pay several hundred dollars for one of these cutouts probably is doing so in error, thinking they are worth more than they really are. If you tried to sell just the cutout without the slab, you might get five or ten bucks for it. But put it in a slab, it suddenly becomes something else. Yes, anyone can buy anything he wants, but the grading companies should reject them as not slabbable.

If you were the President of the company slabbing them you might see things differently. We can agree to disagree on this one .

[barrysloate]

I think the grading companies have certain responsibilities, since we know that putting cards in holders with labels is a form of minting money. You change a label from a 6 to a 7 you've just created wealth. You take a worthless cutout and put it in a slab you've done the same. Hopefully the companies will take this responsibility seriously.

We had a thread a few weeks back where somebody posted a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan, from a 1966 Sporting News, that was slabbed and subsequently sold for $750. Take it out of the slab and it's worth fifty cents. We are all entitled to our opinion but mine is I don't like it.

Yes, we will most definitely disagree on this one.

[drcy]

I agree with Barry in that I don't like the idea of people tearing out pictures from old publications to have them graded.

But if it's already torn out and the grader accurately labels, I won't blame them.

In case any of you missed it, there was/is a big date from PSA collectors because PSA graded several Nolan Ryan 'Pre-Rookie' pictures cut out from a 1966 Sporting News magazine, and included it as part of the Nolan Ryan registry. As a result, a PSA graded Mint 10 '1966 Sporting News Ryan handcut' sold for about $700 recently! You'll be relieved to know that, while they didn't it as sign of a the hobby apocalypse, many PSA collectors on the CU board thought grading a cut out magazine picture as if it was a quasi-card was highly dubious and opened a can of worms. One joked that the PSA 10 example sold for about $699 too much. Even the PSA registry loyalists wondered how such a thing could be included as required part of a player registry.

Oh, and in 'AAA graded 10 Putnam Dictionary Babe Ruth' fashion-- the 1966 Sporting News Ryan has a partial article on back and you can even the text through the front.

[ethicsprof]

There was a time when the vintage grading card companies filled an okay niche in the hobby,particularly once fraud took its hold on much of our beloved avocation. Now I worry a bit
about the speed with which they are sliding down weird slippery slopes by grading and authenticating items which often trap the novices and are unnecessary at best and solely motivated by profit and greed at worst. Some years back I had everything graded. In recent years, I've sent nothing in. I'm wary of this weird slippery slope. I understand full well that businesses inherently live to make a profit but I would hope that they would remember that they are often
also a service offered to the one and the many. I'd like to see the TPG companies wrestle with this before the weird slippery slope becomes not weird but usual and the service inexorably and irrevocably tainted. IMHO

all the best,
barry

[bgar3]

Apparently grading them gives them credibility and value to some people. i personally do not get it, and hate that, in some cases, books are being destroyed. but, as someone once said, "concerning taste no arguing is". I can't wait to see a xerox copy of the Nolan Ryan news photo, in a limited edition card 1 of 1, hand made, encased in plastic with a number on it. WOW.
By the way, Leon your New Orleans team photo came from a book not a magazine, THE BOOK OF BASEBALL, by Patten and Mcspadden, 1911, pages 115-116.

[doug.goodman]

I think the grading companies have certain responsibilities...

Remember that the company that gets paid for their opinions that started this thread is the same company that has a "10" grade and a "collector's 10" grade, which are very much NOT the same thing.

Their "responsibility" to their profit margin is evidently the only one they put any "care" into.

The misleading of uneducated collectors is obviously a part of their business model.

Doug

[chaddurbin]

who knew NASA was ahead of the cut-out curve by 10 years!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

If you were the President of the company slabbing them you might see things differently. We can agree to disagree on this one .

They won't slab a skinned Old Judge, but they'll slab a cutout from a Spalding Guide...in what universe does that make sense?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

They won't slab a skinned Old Judge, but they'll slab a cutout from a Spalding Guide...in what universe does that make sense?

I am not positive but I believe Beckett grades skinned cards. Of course I have no issue with the grading of those either as long as they are labeled correctly (with transparency).

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am not positive but I believe Beckett grades skinned cards. Of course I have no issue with the grading of those either as long as they are labeled correctly (with transparency).

Sorry, I should have been more specific...I was speaking of PSA which it looks like will now slab magazine/book cutouts.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

+1

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

One of the problems of slabbing these cutouts is it may afford them a status they don't deserve. The slab might give someone the impression that they are closely related to baseball cards, and worthy of standing alone. As such, they should conceivably command a high price in the marketplace. Fact is, they are just pages torn out of a book, and while attractive are virtually worthless. Remember, there are always beginners out there who can be easily fooled.

That, and the fact they are destroying these guides, rankles me.

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

There was a time when the vintage grading card companies filled an okay niche in the hobby,particularly once fraud took its hold on much of our beloved avocation. Now I worry a bit
about the speed with which they are sliding down weird slippery slopes by grading and authenticating items which often trap the novices and are unnecessary at best and solely motivated by profit and greed at worst. Some years back I had everything graded. In recent years, I've sent nothing in. I'm wary of this weird slippery slope. I understand full well that businesses inherently live to make a profit but I would hope that they would remember that they are often
also a service offered to the one and the many. I'd like to see the TPG companies wrestle with this before the weird slippery slope becomes not weird but usual and the service inexorably and irrevocably tainted. IMHO

all the best,
barry

I totally agree with both Barry's (Sloate and Arnold).

I have quite a few of the Spalding and Reach Guides (1905 - 1912) in nice condition. Now, should I go "whacko"; and, cut the pages out of these books that have pictures
of Joe Jackson (or Ty Cobb, or Christy Mathewson, or Cy Young, etc.) and submit them to get "plasticized" ? Then try to sell them for ridiculous prices ? ?

I don't think so !


Consider this.....if I don't get them plasticized.....but, simply cut them out and try to sell these pictures "raw". Does anyone on this forum think that I'll find buyers willing to
pay several 100's of dollars for them ? Not if they are sober and of sound mind

Now let's consider this......for example take my 1949 LEAF Babe Ruth card. Obviously it's ungraded, but I would have no problem selling it for several 100's of dollars. Should
I get this Ruth plasticisized....then it's not unrealistic for me to expect to sell it for 1000+ dollars.

My point here is, that this Ruth card has at least 30 years of established increasing value, whereas the picture pages from out of 100+ year old sports publications (whose
market value is only $75) do not.

P.S......It will be interesting to see if this ebay seller sells this picture in 3 days ?


TED Z