Torre, La Rusa & Cox get the call.....

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

There is an interesting article about this very subject on espn.com by Rick Reilly pertaining all 3 Managers overlooking
players doing steroids....

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10...e-la-russa-cox

[glynparson]

But of course I would elect Bonds, Clemens and several other juicers.

[vintagechris]

I read that story this morning and it really made sense to me. If you are going to keep players out who juiced or are thought to have juiced, why do the managers that benefited from them juicing get in?

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by vintagechris

I read that story this morning and it really made sense to me. If you are going to keep players out who juiced or are thought to have juiced, why do the managers that benefited from them juicing get in?

What about their teammates? A lot of players won the World Series with teammates who were juicers. Jeter benefited from playing with Clemens, for example. Should he give back his rings or get excluded from the HOF?

This is obviously an exaggeration, but punishing the players who committed the crime is where it should end IMO.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by the-illini

What about their teammates? A lot of players won the World Series with teammates who were juicers. Jeter benefited from playing with Clemens, for example. Should he give back his rings or get excluded from the HOF?

This is obviously an exaggeration, but punishing the players who committed the crime is where it should end IMO.

Punishing only the players? PEDs roll uphill. A couple of players on a team help garner more wins and larger contracts for themselves. As a result the manager also gets extended and more dough. Then so do the GMs. Teams owners pat themselves on the back (of their bank account) and regional cable advertising revenue, and flatter the Commissioner. You mean to tell me that none of them, the Commisioner included, had/has never an idea? I'll bet Selig had three earfuls of it. MLB can hardly get a Game Of The Week. Selig will get in The Hall.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Punishing only the players? PEDs roll uphill. A couple of players on a team help garner more wins and larger contracts for themselves. As a result the manager also gets extended and more dough. Then so do the GMs. Teams owners pat themselves on the back (of their bank account) and regional cable advertising revenue, and flatter the Commissioner. You mean to tell me that none of them, the Commisioner included, had/has never an idea? I'll bet Selig had three earfuls of it. MLB can hardly get a Game Of The Week. Selig will get in The Hall.

Other players knew, coaches and managers, GMs and surely the commissioner all knew - how are you going to prove they were complicit? Do you just ignore a whole generation of players and managers? Can't do it.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Other players knew, coaches and managers, GMs and surely the commissioner all knew - how are you going to prove they were complicit? Do you just ignore a whole generation of players and managers? Can't do it.

Yes, but your idea is to punish only the players who failed urine and blood tests. To me that's sort of narrow and seems discriminatory. Why not administer some polygraph tests to the upper echelon? There's enough guilt to go around.

[BradH]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Nuts that Marvin Miller hasn't gotten in yet.

Ummm.... No, not surprising at all.

Jeff - I appreciate many of your posts here and I know you have a fine collection, and maybe you can enlighten me, but over the last 20 or so years no one in the "Marvin Miller camp" has ever been able to tell me a single thing that he did FOR THE GAME.

--Increase player salaries thru free agency and arbitration? Sure.
--Increase player endorsement dollars? Absolutely.
--Help the players realize that by using the disabled list instead of playing thru injuries, they can better their chances for more personal money (even if they're hurting their team)? Yep.
--Increase the rights of players to the point that the union could fight for cheaters? You betcha.

Marvin Miller should be in a lot of Halls of Fame (maybe he is, I don't know):
--Union Hall of Fame (first ballot, I'm sure)
--Lawyer Hall of Fame
--Agent Hall of Fame
--Endorsement Hall of Fame
--Arbitration Hall of Fame

If I had a vote, I'd put him in all of the above and then some. But I would never put him in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. In general, even the players he helped to make millions of dollars haven't supported him in this.

Originally Posted by Paul S

Punishing only the players? PEDs roll uphill. A couple of players on a team help garner more wins and larger contracts for themselves. As a result the manager also gets extended and more dough. Then so do the GMs. Teams owners pat themselves on the back (of their bank account) and regional cable advertising revenue, and flatter the Commissioner. You mean to tell me that none of them, the Commisioner included, had/has never an idea.

See above (regarding Marvin Miller and the Basic Agreement he fought so hard for). No one seems to remember that the managers and GMs and owners, despite numerous attempts to intervene, were expressly prohibited from stepping in. I'm not saying they would have, but they couldn't if they'd tried. The MLBPA was steadfastly against any kind of PED testing until the early 2000s and it was not allowed by the Basic Agreement.

Point all the fingers you want about who knew what, but the players had it in their power to implement testing as early as 1994. Plain and simple.

[Paul S]

Hi Brad, If you read me closely I am not exonerating the players either. But let me say this: All sides are looking to get a leg up. I'm not defending any party. I'm so old that 1994 that is like yesterday to me...well, the day before yesterday...and the whole Curt Flood ordeal is like two days before yesterday. Of course, I'm never to old to not be a fool