Problem with Legendary Lot . . . Opinions?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

So its uncertain that the seller knew the pinholes were there, but, based upon microscopic scans, the potential buyers should have known that. LOLOLOLOLOL. Yeah. That's the ticket.

Cheap plaintiff's lawyer trick, to mischaracterize the argument. Nobody said David should have known they were there, and you know nobody said that. Is there an opening at the White House, they could use another guy in their arsenal of spinners.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Cheap plaintiff's lawyer trick, to mischaracterize the argument. Nobody said David should have known they were there, and you know nobody said that. Is there an opening at the White House, they could use another guy in their arsenal of spinners.

Peter, that is exactly your argument. BTW, defense lawyers are masters at mischaracterizing the argument, so if I have made it to your level in that regard, I take that as a compliment. What you don't like is that I phrased "the argument" more succinctly and accurately than you are happy about.

[autograf]

With all the griping that goes on about Heritage, scan quality is one thing they have down pat. At least whatever they do scan is a really good scan. Omitting items might be another issue. If pinholes are within the tolerance for a SGC10, then it is what it is. If it was a SGC60 with a pinhole it'd be a different story. Bigger scans are always better though......

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by autograf

With all the griping that goes on about Heritage, scan quality is one thing they have down pat. At least whatever they do scan is a really good scan. Omitting items might be another issue. If pinholes are within the tolerance for a SGC10, then it is what it is. If it was a SGC60 with a pinhole it'd be a different story. Bigger scans are always better though......

Good point about Heritage. Large scans ARE possible.

[caramelcard]

Originally Posted by autograf

With all the griping that goes on about Heritage, scan quality is one thing they have down pat. At least whatever they do scan is a really good scan. Omitting items might be another issue. If pinholes are within the tolerance for a SGC10, then it is what it is. If it was a SGC60 with a pinhole it'd be a different story. Bigger scans are always better though......

I agree. Everybody loves REA. They are the laziest with scans out of any auction house. Quality material with horrible small scans. I guess they only have a year (well now 6 months) to prepare scans...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Peter, that is exactly your argument. BTW, defense lawyers are masters at mischaracterizing the argument, so if I have made it to your level in that regard, I take that as a compliment. What you don't like is that I phrased "the argument" more succinctly and accurately than you are happy about.

My argument, to repeat, is not that David should have known there were pinholes, but that he knew that the grades were 1s and that the scans were tiny and that there was no description, SO... if it was important to him to know WHY they were 1s ... he should have asked. It's that simple. I think there are still circumstances where a plaintiff is held to a duty to investigate, although they may be dwindling. But let's put it in a different framework. Normally, in an omissions case, there is a duty to speak only to make something actually said not misleading. Basic fraud law, right? So what did Legendary say here that made it misleading not to mention pinholes?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My argument, to repeat, is not that David should have known there were pinholes, but that he knew that the grades were 1s and that the scans were tiny and that there was no description, SO... if it was important to him to know WHY they were 1s ... he should have asked. It's that simple. I think there are still circumstances where a plaintiff is held to a duty to investigate, although they may be dwindling. But let's put it in a different framework. Normally, in an omissions case, there is a duty to speak only to make something actually said not misleading. Basic fraud law, right? So what did Legendary say here that made it misleading not to mention pinholes?

Uh, no. There is also a duty not to mislead by speaking half truths, a duty not to fail to inform when you know what you have said may have been misleading, a duty to disclose based upon a relationship and superior knowledge, etc. Misrepresentation, deceit, omission, non-disclosure and concealment are all types of generic fraud. That's fraud 101

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My argument, to repeat, is not that David should have known there were pinholes, but that he knew that the grades were 1s and that the scans were tiny and that there was no description, SO... if it was important to him to know WHY they were 1s ... he should have asked. It's that simple. I think there are still circumstances where a plaintiff is held to a duty to investigate, although they may be dwindling. But let's put it in a different framework. Normally, in an omissions case, there is a duty to speak only to make something actually said not misleading. Basic fraud law, right? So what did Legendary say here that made it misleading not to mention pinholes?

Agreed.

[barrysloate]

There is some culpability on the part of both parties, but the onus falls largely on the auction house. Sure, David could have called and asked some questions, but he shouldn't have had to. The description, along with the scans, should provide all the information a bidder needs to bid confidently. Could you imagine if every bidder had to call to ask for a better description of lots? It would be a fiasco.

One of my hobby pet peeves (I have many) is the way auction lots are written up. I have never seen worse writing in my life than lot descriptions. Hundreds of useless hyberbolic words, numerous convoluted and hard to follow sentences, when a simple "SGC 10 with pinholes" would tell the bidder pretty much everything he needs to know. But writers of auction text gobbledygook have perfected the art of obfuscating any information that would adversely affect bidding. I hate the wordiness of these catalogs and I'm sure many others do too. Just write short, clear, and precise descriptions and move on.

[bobbyw8469]

LOL! Like Memory Lane.....BID TO WIN! GET IT! OWN IT NOW! They are so short, I love seeing what new things they can come up with in 4 words or less!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is some culpability on the part of both parties, but the onus falls largely on the auction house. Sure, David could have called and asked some questions, but he shouldn't have had to. The description, along with the scans, should provide all the information a bidder needs to bid confidently. Could you imagine if every bidder had to call to ask for a better description of lots? It would be a fiasco.

One of my hobby pet peeves (I have many) is the way auction lots are written up. I have never seen worse writing in my life than lot descriptions. Hundreds of useless hyberbolic words, numerous convoluted and hard to follow sentences, when a simple "SGC 10 with pinholes" would tell the bidder pretty much everything he needs to know. But writers of auction text gobbledygook have perfected the art of obfuscating any information that would adversely affect bidding. I hate the wordiness of these catalogs and I'm sure many others do too. Just write short, clear, and precise descriptions and move on.

Slippery slope. Pinholes were not the only problem. Is Legendary supposed to go through every single card in every single lot and describe every single thing that anyone could possibly consider to be less than perfect?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Slippery slope. Pinholes were not the only problem. Is Legendary supposed to go through every single card in every single lot and describe every single thing that anyone could possibly consider to be less than perfect?

They should supply all the relevant information possible, and leave out all the unnecessary background noise. In the time it takes them to compose all that flowery verbiage, they could point out the pinholes and have some time left over to work on the next lot. Yes, pinholes are an integral part of the lot description, IMO. We're not talking about a surface wrinkle in one card that they may have missed.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Slippery slope. Pinholes were not the only problem. Is Legendary supposed to go through every single card in every single lot and describe every single thing that anyone could possibly consider to be less than perfect?

So post scans that actually show the card and its issues. The scans they posted of these cards are useless. They might as well have drawn pictures of the cards with crayons. That would have been just about as revealing of the cards' issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is some culpability on the part of both parties, but the onus falls largely on the auction house. Sure, David could have called and asked some questions, but he shouldn't have had to. The description, along with the scans, should provide all the information a bidder needs to bid confidently. Could you imagine if every bidder had to call to ask for a better description of lots? It would be a fiasco.

One of my hobby pet peeves (I have many) is the way auction lots are written up. I have never seen worse writing in my life than lot descriptions. Hundreds of useless hyberbolic words, numerous convoluted and hard to follow sentences, when a simple "SGC 10 with pinholes" would tell the bidder pretty much everything he needs to know. But writers of auction text gobbledygook have perfected the art of obfuscating any information that would adversely affect bidding. I hate the wordiness of these catalogs and I'm sure many others do too. Just write short, clear, and precise descriptions and move on.

I don't think it's necessarily obfuscation. For example some of the descriptions in LOTG are pretty flowery but I think that just reflects Al's enthusiasm. Also I can't dispute the proposition that it's good marketing, and if I were a consignor I would probably like it.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think it's necessarily obfuscation. For example some of the descriptions in LOTG are pretty flowery but I think that just reflects Al's enthusiasm. Also I can't dispute the proposition that it's good marketing, and if I were a consignor I would probably like it.

Since I've written up over a thousand lots in my days as an auction house owner, I found there are three main things one needs to do:

1) Write an accurate description of a lot's physical characteristics and condition.
2) Supply historical context where it applies ( more so for memorabilia than cards).
3) Offer a little bit of hype to make the lot seem as appealing as possible.

It's a bit of a balancing act and you don't always get it exactly right. Some are really good at it, others offer nothing more than endless hype, just sentence after sentence stating that a particular lot is the greatest thing ever offered. Meanwhile, the auction house has no idea why the lot is important in the context of baseball history.

And I do agree that LOTG does about as good a job as anybody of balancing the three. And Al has a good sense of humor to boot. But I've read other auction descriptions that are simply cringe worthy and embarrassing.

[forazzurri2axz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Cheap plaintiff's lawyer trick, to mischaracterize the argument. Nobody said David should have known they were there, and you know nobody said that. Is there an opening at the White House, they could use another guy in their arsenal of spinners.

and the previous ones in the WH were war criminals who sent thousands of kids to die for their wallets to become fatter----let's see...what's worse spinners or neo-nazi war criminals????

[Leon]

Originally Posted by forazzurri2axz

and the previous ones in the WH were war criminals who sent thousands of kids to die for their wallets to become fatter----let's see...what's worse spinners or neo-nazi war criminals????

Infraction given again......NO mentioning of POLITICS......

[autograf]

'bitter.........party of one.........'




not you Leon....couple posts up......geez.....

[vargha]

I haven't really heard anyone who says Legendary has at least some culpability discuss what a fair response would be. Predicate it on them not having knowledge of the holes prior to my call. Or maybe answer it from the perspective of if you were the seller and a similar thing happened with the buyer contacting you.

[Rich Klein]

I'll repeat one thing, without seeing the larger scans, I have no idea about the size of the pin holes. Since you are refusing to post the scans until you feel ready to sell the cards, I have to assume you have just as much culpability as Legendary is this. Post the damned scans already. I'm shocked no one else has asked you to do this

Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Post the damned scans already. I'm shocked no one else has asked you to do this

Rich

You're going to have to wait until noon like the rest of us.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I'll repeat one thing, without seeing the larger scans, I have no idea about the size of the pin holes. Since you are refusing to post the scans until you feel ready to sell the cards, I have to assume you have just as much culpability as Legendary is this. Post the damned scans already. I'm shocked no one else has asked you to do this

Rich

That or he's just soliciting for solutions to compare to the solution(s) he is ready to accept from or propose to Legendary, so he can pick the solution that benefits him the most. I can't think of any other reasons why he'd repeatedly ask for possible solutions without divulging any additional details. Its why I've only been a spectator in that regard without offering up my opinion.

If I was in your shoes David, I would have settled this with Legendary in private to a degree I found acceptable and that I was satisfied with. Then potentially post my experience here for general discussion instead of panning for solutions as you seem to be doing.

[vargha]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I'll repeat one thing, without seeing the larger scans, I have no idea about the size of the pin holes. Since you are refusing to post the scans until you feel ready to sell the cards, I have to assume you have just as much culpability as Legendary is this. Post the damned scans already. I'm shocked no one else has asked you to do this

Rich

Geez Rich, as I said earlier, either you take it at face value what I'm saying or you don't. Are you going to intervene for me on my behalf? You live in Plano. Come on over to my house and look at them in person. I'm in Fort Worth.

[Fred]

David,

You asked us to "humor" you, I tried doing that earlier in the thread, and the answer to the question is "its ass". My apologies for my poor attempt at humoring you....

These are SGC 10's ("1") so we would expect "issues". However, I understand where you're coming from because when I've sold cards on ebay I always tried to do my best to disclose issues on cards, even if they were graded a "1". Like someone mentioned much earlier in the thread, less fluff about the lot and more descriptive dialog should be used.

I'm not sure that it would have hurt the auction house to add a few more sentences, especially if they are going to make hundreds of dollars on the sale of the lot. We're talking about 5 minutes of time (to provide a more detailed description) and a few lines of text or making larger scans available. Hundreds of dollars of profit vs customer satisfaction?

As mentioned before, an email request for larger scans and/or a more detailed description of the lot could have prevented this.