Here We Go Again!!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ajw9356

New to Net54 but not to cards, however this isn't my area of expertise.
I have seen and held a card that had the Piedmont back. The card was purchased by a local in Kansas where I live at an auction about 30-35 years ago according to the card owner. I looked over the card and it was in a box of tools when purchased and has a pretty good oil stain to prove that. The biggest issue I had with the card was that it appeared to have a clear coat or something on top of the card that was not part of the original card. I need to get some pics if the card ever comes back into daylight, but had a couple questions for those familiar with these cards. I thought it looked suspect with the coating, however, I trust the guy who has it that it was purchased that long ago.
1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?
2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?
Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints?

1-from the photo reference I see a Piedmont back, this card was produced then? Not just Sweet Coporal?

Yes, but probably not as a regular production card. I'm fairly sure all the Piedmont backed Wagners have odd issues.

2-Anyone ever see anything like some sort of clear coating (similar to a lacquer)? The coating is well aged, I'm a hobby woodworker and there is definite petina on the card as well as the coating?

Sometimes. Could be shellac or varnish put on to protect it, or is fake a more modern gloss coating
.
3-he wants to send for grading at some point! I'm seeing SGC as a large player for T206, this is the best company? I know PSA is big in vintage, but pre-war SGC correct?

Either would be fine. But I'd recommend posting a good front and back scan here. The overwhelming odds are that it's a reprint. And at the least we can save one of you some postage.
At least one of the very common reprints is Piedmont backed, and readily available. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T-20...item5d454885c8
4-I'll see what I can do to get some high quality photos in the future but I can also get a magnifier out and look at the printing, what do I need to look for front and back for printing?

If there's no factory shown at the bottom of the back It's probably fake.If there are signs or erasing where the copyright notice and "reprint" are on the back of the reprint linked above it's fake for sure. A couple of the other reprints may be piedmont backs too, but I can't find scans of them to be sure. The two big sets had a company name at the bottom of the back, so any problems in that area are almost a sure sign of a reprint.
The cardboard was one thickness, so if it looks at all like two layers it's probably a reprint skinned and glued to a real common.
The old printing looks very different than modern printing. The best thing is to get a low grade common T206 and study it. There should be plenty out there for under $20 maybe even closer to 10.

Edit5- When did fakes start showing up or reprints

Late 70's for sure, maybe early -mid 70's. Most of those were specifically made for collectors and have a back that describes the card. I have an earlier version that's black and white, so not exactly a reprint. But the later ones could fool someone if skinned and glued.

Steve B

[ajw9356]

Thanks for the info, it's been two years since the guy has removed the card from a safe deposit box. Known him for 6 years, only knew about it after 4 years.
The one and only time I saw the card he had it in one of those super thick acetate slabs and refused to take it out, so I'm going to talk to him about looking it over again. I was able to look at it for about a half hour and I've seen some of the T206 before, I was pretty sure the back was consistent with a real card, so when you say the Piedmont backs weren't regular issue I'm assuming that the printed ones were all supposedly or supposed to be destroyed, if you could elaborate open the issues with them that would be great. Any idea if it would smell like tobacco? I know it was a fairly worn card, so the corners were well rounded, but I can't recall all the damage it had sustained. The biggest thing I could see was that there was definitely a coating but the part that had chipped off revealed what appeared to be fairly consistent with a real issue as well. I just didn't think that real good quality fakes were made more than 30-35 years ago. If it's a fake, it's top quality other than what ever was put on the surface, that was the other thing I didn't understand was if someone took the time to protect the surface why find it in a box of tools. I believe there were a small number of other vintage in the same box, but that doesn't mean whichever auction house didn't put them there. Ever heard of anyone using a shellac or varnish to protect cards? I've seen those reprints, was nothing like that, wasn't modern cardboard. Was there ever a reprint with rounded/cropped corners, I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall. I had dismissed the card as a fake because of the surface issue, but would really like to see it again.

[1880nonsports]

" I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall."

Sorry I really don't understand (not unusual). Hopefully you will be able to post some scans.....?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ajw9356

Thanks for the info, it's been two years since the guy has removed the card from a safe deposit box. Known him for 6 years, only knew about it after 4 years.
The one and only time I saw the card he had it in one of those super thick acetate slabs and refused to take it out, so I'm going to talk to him about looking it over again. I was able to look at it for about a half hour and I've seen some of the T206 before, I was pretty sure the back was consistent with a real card, so when you say the Piedmont backs weren't regular issue I'm assuming that the printed ones were all supposedly or supposed to be destroyed, if you could elaborate open the issues with them that would be great. Any idea if it would smell like tobacco? I know it was a fairly worn card, so the corners were well rounded, but I can't recall all the damage it had sustained. The biggest thing I could see was that there was definitely a coating but the part that had chipped off revealed what appeared to be fairly consistent with a real issue as well. I just didn't think that real good quality fakes were made more than 30-35 years ago. If it's a fake, it's top quality other than what ever was put on the surface, that was the other thing I didn't understand was if someone took the time to protect the surface why find it in a box of tools. I believe there were a small number of other vintage in the same box, but that doesn't mean whichever auction house didn't put them there. Ever heard of anyone using a shellac or varnish to protect cards? I've seen those reprints, was nothing like that, wasn't modern cardboard. Was there ever a reprint with rounded/cropped corners, I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall. I had dismissed the card as a fake because of the surface issue, but would really like to see it again.

I've seen a few shellacked cards, as well as a few that were laminated in the 70's to "protect" them. It was more common on signed baseballs.

I've also seen cards coated in wax - but late 40's early 50's cards. The wax made them heavier for one of the card flipping games.

The reprints vary in quality, most have obvious flaws, but were also sold as reprints so they didn't try very hard to get them exact. Here's one of the early 80's ones. Obvious things different, but if someone hasn't seen more than a couple T206s it might pass if the front was pasted to a common.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONUS-HANS-W...item51b0e7debb

There are very few real ones with Piedmont backs. I can only be sure of two, one is handcut and has some printing issues, so it's probably printer scrap. The other is very famous, but is now known for sure to be trimmed, and is rumored to have been cut from a sheet at some time. There's probably one or two others but I can't find scans.

Another reprint was sold in a common book from Dover press. Thinner paper, and perforated so you could remove it from the page. But I have seen dover reprints with machine rounded corners and trimmed off edges being sold as real. (In 1979 -) Those would also appear decent if glued to a real card. and they were glossy.

A lot of edge wear, no creases, maybe coated with something, all points to a fake.

It's not entirely unusual for an auction, -especially a not so well lit country auction- to include an item like that in a lot that might need a bit of "help" in order to sell. Maybe a box of tools that's not going to bring much and hasn't sold in an earlier auction. It's crooked, but it's done. And not always by the auction, since some just auction whatever comes through the door that morning. I've bought items at auctions like that, and stuff needs a very good looking at to be sure what you're getting. The one time I didn't check an item out closely worked out well, but could easily have gone the other way. (40's Braves warmup jacket that I didn't even see in the preview. They had it on a chair behind one of the tables and I just figured it was one of the workers jackets. Nobody else looked at it either, and there were only two bidders)

Steve B

[t206blogcom]

Card is an obvious fake, or am I pointing out the obvious? Did this one originate in Ohio as well?

[Leon]

Hopefully no one got screwed out of their money on this one. An obvious fake from a person doing their best to commit fraud. They should write fairy tales and would surely make money that way. They are definitely good at making crap up...

[ajw9356]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

" I recall the card looked like the old bicycle spokes got ahold of them like so many other vintage cards, though there were no creases if I recall."

Sorry I really don't understand (not unusual). Hopefully you will be able to post some scans.....?

The card basically looked fairly worn like some of my Dad's 1950's that looked to be in poor condition because of handling, card games, what ever mishandling they endured (sometime bicycle spokes, which my dad admitted to doing), however, I don't recall there being any major creases.

Originally Posted by Striker

A 7x jewlers loupe might be a good first step!

Ya, I've got a pretty nice loop and two different magnifiers, along with a blacklight and a digital caliper, so I should be able to get a pretty good measurement on the card even the thickness.

Originally Posted by steve B

I've seen a few shellacked cards, as well as a few that were laminated in the 70's to "protect" them. It was more common on signed baseballs.

I've also seen cards coated in wax - but late 40's early 50's cards. The wax made them heavier for one of the card flipping games.

The reprints vary in quality, most have obvious flaws, but were also sold as reprints so they didn't try very hard to get them exact. Here's one of the early 80's ones. Obvious things different, but if someone hasn't seen more than a couple T206s it might pass if the front was pasted to a common.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONUS-HANS-W...item51b0e7debb

There are very few real ones with Piedmont backs. I can only be sure of two, one is handcut and has some printing issues, so it's probably printer scrap. The other is very famous, but is now known for sure to be trimmed, and is rumored to have been cut from a sheet at some time. There's probably one or two others but I can't find scans.

Another reprint was sold in a common book from Dover press. Thinner paper, and perforated so you could remove it from the page. But I have seen dover reprints with machine rounded corners and trimmed off edges being sold as real. (In 1979 -) Those would also appear decent if glued to a real card. and they were glossy.

A lot of edge wear, no creases, maybe coated with something, all points to a fake.

It's not entirely unusual for an auction, -especially a not so well lit country auction- to include an item like that in a lot that might need a bit of "help" in order to sell. Maybe a box of tools that's not going to bring much and hasn't sold in an earlier auction. It's crooked, but it's done. And not always by the auction, since some just auction whatever comes through the door that morning. I've bought items at auctions like that, and stuff needs a very good looking at to be sure what you're getting. The one time I didn't check an item out closely worked out well, but could easily have gone the other way. (40's Braves warmup jacket that I didn't even see in the preview. They had it on a chair behind one of the tables and I just figured it was one of the workers jackets. Nobody else looked at it either, and there were only two bidders)

Steve B

Thanks Steve

[tbob]

Before you buy any pre-war cards from a seller on ebay, especially higher price cards, always check and see what else he is selling and has sold in the last 6 months. If he is predominantly selling shiny insert cards from 2012 and 2013, RUN!