|
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Some of the greatest minds in the hobby frequent this board, I am genuinly interested in hearing a viable solution to the problem. If we're going to sit at our computers and bash a small business owner, how about we put in a little bit of thought and figure out a solution. Last edited by jhs5120; 10-17-2013 at 12:42 PM. |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
Jason, why can't Brent tell us his thoughts on these issues instead of you? Doesn't he have more invested in concerns about the fraud that might be occurring in his auctions than you do?
And why are we responsible for cleaning up his auctions? I wasn't aware of that responsibility. I thought our responsibility started and ended with the rules of his auction.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets Last edited by calvindog; 10-17-2013 at 12:57 PM. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
If it takes 96 man-hours to check for retracting bidders, then hire help to do just that. As the problem is attacked it should start to get under control, with bid retractors blocked. As for new accounts being prohibited as potential shills, you can simply deny bidders with less than 5 or 10 feedback from bidding unless they get approval–no need to check account creation dates.
And no one said you have to run 12,000 auctions at a time. Turning away consignors (or postponing their orders) may seem like anathema, but the excuse of “I’m making too much money to care how I make it” is a non-starter with me. SHOW SOME INITIATIVE.
__________________
If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President. |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Per PWCC: The sportscard hobby hinges on the honesty and integrity of the seller. Too often we hear of fraud and other manipulation that serves to undermine the integrity of our hobby. Bidders deserve better, where bidding is 100% legitimate and uninfluenced by manipulations such as fraudulent (shill) bidding by the auction house, consignors, friends of consignors, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who participates insincerely with the sole intention of manipulating the sale price. We do NOT permit shill bidding of any kind and actively police our auctions to prevent such acts from occurring. If we learn that a bidder is questionable, we take action in the form of canceling the bid and blocking a bidder from participating in future auctions. To preserve the integrity of the bidding process, we believe that eBay is the best forum to host auctions due to the privacy of the eBay platform. Unlike proprietary auction software, eBay’s platform is equally transparent to both the buyer and the seller. We don’t know the value of a bidder’s max bid, nor do our consignors, or anyone else. We've spent the last 15 years on eBay (since 1998) working to garner the trust of collectors and the hobby at large. Rest assured that you can trust our service and can participate in our auctions with the confidence that integrity is our #1 priority. |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Doug Allen had a Code of Conduct too. See indictment.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
This HAS been brought forward in the past and it goes UNANSWERED. It has been brought up again explicitly because Brent has posted to the forum. Peter simply was asking for Brent's response to this. Either they are doing what they say they are doing (see bold and highlighted) or they are not. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
FYI it took me about three minutes to find five (or maybe it was more) suspicious bidders who should be investigated. The stats people throw up in an effort to make this seem more overwhelming than putting a man on the moon don't impress me much.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
What type of "investigation" do you wish Brent would conduct on these 5 suspicious bidders?
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
How? I decided to try it myself, looked at about 25 auctions bid history. Only checked patterns that looked odd. That took roughly 13 minutes. I did find three bidders I thought were a bit suspect, and two maybes. But over a couple thousand auctions the hours spent would be close to what Jason had. And call it statistics, but the costs I figured would be the costs no matter what you call them. Checking requires labor, those workers need to be paid. I do agree that some effort would weed out the most obvious problem bidders. I'm not so sure that would reduce the overall problem since those bidders might be replaced with new problem bidders. And I have doubts that such light scrutiny would satisfy you. If a big consigner came on once a month and said he'd spent a half hour and banned 5 people would you be ok with that? Or would you demand that he look into every bidder. If he looked into every bidder on items over 250 would that be ok, or should it be every bidder on every item? And what's the threshold for "suspect" a couple bid retractions? A certain pattern? Someone intent on shilling will work around almost any detection method. (See also computer anti-virus programming. They're written nearly as fast as the AV can be adjusted to block them) I agree shilling is bad, and that some steps should be taken. Persoanlly I'd be happy with any genuine effort by any of the large consignment companies. But it does have to be tempered with a bit of realism. Not all suspect patterns are shills. Not all shills can or will be caught. It doesn't mean not trying. Ebay allowing people with too many retractions to be blocked would be a very big help. And for Ebay it wouldn't be that hard or expensive. (Not counting the lost fees from shilled items.) They already have the programmers on the payroll. So far no takers on bankrolling a shiller detection program..........Not that I'm expecting any. Steve B |
#10
|
||||
|
||||
I agree, I think Brent is in a bad spot because of volume. (Same with other large ebay consignors like Probstein.) However, I do think there are some solutions.
The most obvious would be if ebay would actually get off their butt and help out here. First, ebay can make the bidding id's public. Then everyone can see the actual bidding id's. Next, beside the bidding id in the bidding history, ebay can place the location (City/State) of the bidder. Therefore, if a bidder create fake id's, you can see it b/c of the location of the bidder. However, how about those bidders who fake their location? You can require that the location be mapped to a confirmed shipping address from paypal. In addition, ebay can require that all bidders have paypal accounts. (or if ebay does not, PWCC can in their auctions require that all bidders have valid paypal accounts.) In their paypal accounts, ebay/paypal can require that all accounts have confirmed bank accounts linked to them. This way, it won't be as easy for bidders to create fake accounts, and ebay/paypal can make sure that the account name on the bank account matches the account name on the ebay account along w/ the location. This way there would be more transparency for potential bidders to see what's going on in the bidding history for an auction, and ebay would be able to catch shill bidding much easier. Even if someone is having a friend bid for them, it would be much more difficult if they're near the same location. Obviously, there would still be loopholes if the friend or dealer friend is in a different state. Another thing that ebay can add is as part of the Buyer Requirements, add a requirement for bidding retractions where if a buyer has a certain number of retractions in the last year, prevent them from bidding in the auction. Then sellers can use this auction to help prevent shilling. Everything I mentioned is pretty much for ebay. Obviously with so many auctions, it's tough for PWCC to police every one of them. However, perhaps they could participate in some of the threads more openly, and post the actual bidding history of auctions when asked. Basically if certain auctions were questioned, they could investigate those auctions openly as needed, which would help ensure the public that no funny business were going on. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
The part of the solution I was talking about takes about 3 seconds. Check someone's bid history, if more than 2 retractions a year, ban them. I don't give a rat's ass where they did the retractions. I am all inclusive of any ebay auction. That is a workable partial solution.
If we found a cure for breast cancer would we take it now or wait until all cancer is curable?
__________________
Leon Luckey |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
simple
No Auction house will stop Shill bidding!
IT MAKES THEM MONEY to have shill bids IT COSTS THEM MONEY to Police it.... sorry folks...it will never stop.... EBAY LOVES SHILL BIDDING....they have meetings every month to talk about how they can further HIDE shill bidding for their customers... its like beating a dead horse....IT WILL NEVER END...part of buying something over the computer.... |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Time spent by potential victims of fraud in PWCC auctions discussing solutions to fraud = much
Time spent by owner of PWCC auctions discussing solutions to fraud = 0
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The above is significantly less than the time spent by owner on this forum soliciting feedback to help improve his bottom line.
__________________
Looking for: Type 1 photos of baseball HOFers N172 Old Judge Portraits Will buy or trade for the above. Check out my cards at: www.imageevent.com/crb972 |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
We do NOT permit shill bidding of any kind and actively police our auctions to prevent such acts from occurring. If Brent has too many listing to (I'm quoting from his own rules) "actively police" all of those listings then he is in violation of his own auction rules! And if having too many items listed at one time prevents him from following through with his own rules then that is his fault, he has failed his responsibility and he is in violation of his own auction rules and this is completely unacceptable. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Increcible prices for PWCC auctions | Peter_Spaeth | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 103 | 09-22-2016 07:46 AM |
Did anyone get the T206 SGC 86 O'hara on PWCC? | CMIZ5290 | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 7 | 09-30-2013 07:36 AM |
Anyone win any of the STAMPED E90-1 cards from PWCC? | CaramelMan | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 17 | 08-08-2013 03:51 AM |
Latest PWCC | drmondobueno | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 16 | 02-14-2013 02:15 PM |
1935 Goudey Master on EBay with PWCC | grundle20 | Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T | 0 | 06-02-2012 11:44 AM |