Implications of "cleaning up the hobby?"

[steve B]

Stuff trumps all for some, and trumps something for just about everyone.

I don't think you could find an auction house that's been around for any length of time that has never done anything remotely improper. Most probably don't engage in flat out fraud, but there are enough situations where there's some gray area that nearly all have done something.

I try to take the high road as much as possible. But there are times when things have not worked out that way.

A couple live auctions I've been to -
One a regular auction I went to fairly often the auctioneer hated left bids. And would often disclose the left bid maximum if bidding got close. Especially on large items like furniture. Bedroom set? Geez, I hate left bids left bid is $100, any advance? A few items with left bids sold for the left bid maximum.
Not right, but considering the nuisance of loading up a roomful of furniture and taking it back to his small shop until the winner could come get it, probably requiring help loading it, he probably still lost most of his profit. (10-15% bp, so he was making a whole $15 to do the extra lugging.) But he also stopped an item to warn two front row bidders about open collusion. One offered to back off if the other guy backed off another lot. Yes, it's done all the time, but yes, it's technically as illegal as shilling, and really shouldn't be done a few feet from the auctioneer.

Another - and here's a mild confession- Coin auction in the 80's. I had a few things I wanted and knew what to pay. But was being outbid on all of them. Finally overheard a dealer a couple rows in front of me brag about how "the kid hasn't been able to buy anything. Don't know what I'll do with the stuff be he won't get it." He also mentioned that he needed a certain half dollar for a customer. I moved seats and bid it up past retail. The look on his face when the kid congratulated him on his "great buy" as he was wondering aloud just why it had sold for so much was priceless. Then I asked how much he "needed" the other couple coins he'd talked about. ...........No more buying stuff just to keep the kid for getting it. Yeah, it was wrong. But I'm still on the fence whether it was really all that out of line.

I've been offered stuff I was one bid short of after an auction a couple times. Nice offer, but I always declined. It just didn't seem fair. It helped that I'd also spent most of the money I'd planned for that item on second choice stuff that went after it.

And I think most auctions that have been around a while have been stuck with fakes or stuff where the ownership becomes questionable.


So stuff happens all the time, some of it not entirely proper. It comes down to a matter of how often does it happen, and how do they handle it.

Steve B

[Exhibitman]

There's always been crap going on but as the money increased so did the level of it. Bid fixing and auction manipulation is old-hat and widespread. Collusion between Sotheby's and Christie's on commissions for art consignments resulted in prison terms for the Sotheby's chair and a $512 million class action settlement for defrauded consignors.

I agree with some of the other posts that it has to start with individual decisions not to deal with crooks. The problem, of course, is that 90% success in a bidder boycott only results in fewer bidders, not no bidders, which only hurts the consignors and puts great deals into the hands of the remaining bidders who don't care about the ethics of the auctioneer and who will then flip for a profit. Take Legendary as an example. Two of the principals are under indictment for fraudulent acts in connection with auctions they ran at Mastro. Does anyone here believe that Legendary will suddenly not sell items at their next auction? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you can pick up too.

As for 'stuff trumps all', well that is not entirely true--I've stopped bidding on one AH's stuff because they deal in Nazi paraphernalia including concentration camp 'souvenirs' and I find that too disturbing to stomach--but it sure trumps a lot. I am in the same boat as many collectors here: I love to collect but the only way I can afford to expand my collection is by strategically selling or trading stuff. To return to my example, I will continue to review Legendary's catalogs and bid with Legendary despite the indictments of two of the principals, if I think I can profit from it and actually get my cards. I believe the same is true of enough collectors that there is no realistic possibility of a bidder boycott working.

Now, a consignor boycott might have some teeth. I know I won't send anything to Legendary because I've heard horror stories of what happened when Mastro went under w/r/t consignors getting their stuff back and getting paid, and I would not want to risk losing my items/not get paid should a similar fate befall Legendary if Doug and Mark are convicted or plead guilty. That's really more self-preservation than ethics at work, though if the twain meet, the result would be the same.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

There's always been crap going on but as the money increased so did the level of it. Bid fixing and auction manipulation is old-hat and widespread. Collusion between Sotheby's and Christie's on commissions for art consignments resulted in prison terms for the Sotheby's chair and a $512 million class action settlement for defrauded consignors.

I agree with some of the other posts that it has to start with individual decisions not to deal with crooks. The problem, of course, is that 90% success in a bidder boycott only results in fewer bidders, not no bidders, which only hurts the consignors and puts great deals into the hands of the remaining bidders who don't care about the ethics of the auctioneer and who will then flip for a profit. Take Legendary as an example. Two of the principals are under indictment for fraudulent acts in connection with auctions they ran at Mastro. Does anyone here believe that Legendary will suddenly not sell items at their next auction? If so, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you can pick up too.

As for 'stuff trumps all', well that is not entirely true--I've stopped bidding on one AH's stuff because they deal in Nazi paraphernalia including concentration camp 'souvenirs' and I find that too disturbing to stomach--but it sure trumps a lot. I am in the same boat as many collectors here: I love to collect but the only way I can afford to expand my collection is by strategically selling or trading stuff. To return to my example, I will continue to review Legendary's catalogs and bid with Legendary despite the indictments of two of the principals, if I think I can profit from it and actually get my cards. I believe the same is true of enough collectors that there is no realistic possibility of a bidder boycott working.

Now, a consignor boycott might have some teeth. I know I won't send anything to Legendary because I've heard horror stories of what happened when Mastro went under w/r/t consignors getting their stuff back and getting paid, and I would not want to risk losing my items/not get paid should a similar fate befall Legendary if Doug and Mark are convicted or plead guilty. That's really more self-preservation than ethics at work, though if the twain meet, the result would be the same.

I'm not sure I agree with you that anything less than a complete bidder boycott would not have the desired impact on the AH. It seems to me that if a significant number of bidders stopped bidding at a crooked AH, potential consignors would take notice of the poor realized prices and take their business elsewhere. They likely will have heard the accusations about the questionable practices of the AH and reasonably wonder how a consignment to the AH would get the widest universe of bidders if a bidder boycott might be underway. So, when you start to look past the short term of the impact of a bidder boycott, it would have a significant impact on the AH.

[ScottFandango]

just consign and bid with B&L

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

just consign and bid with B&L

Only if you are feelin' Luckey

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It seems to me that if a significant number of bidders stopped bidding at a crooked AH, potential consignors would take notice of the poor realized prices and take their business elsewhere.

Its not the quantity, its the quality. I would think if a small pool of large spenders did not bid, the impact would then be felt...

I agree with Adam, if larger consignors boycotted, I think we'd see an immediate impact.