Implications of "cleaning up the hobby?"

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

It IS a delicate ecosystem...this hobby...isn't it!!!!!

I'm starting to feel like that dude who used to be on here who was eventually limited to 10 posts/day...responding to everyones' posts!!!!

Don't worry about it Pete. You will never catch me and probably not Barry either, as far as number of posts go.
As for cleansing the hobby.... It would be great and I think it is better today than it has been in the last 10-15 yrs. Status quo though regardless of cleansing or not, imo...

[barrysloate]

I don't think I will stay in second place for long....don't post as much as I used to.

[the 'stache]

It took me forever to jump into the pre-war and vintage eras for this very reason. If I was going to be spending a good chunk of change on really old cardboard, I wanted to make sure that I knew what I was doing, that I was equipped to buy safely. Without this place, and the help I've received from all of you, I honestly don't know if I would have ever done it. And that's really a shame, because even though I've just really started, I'm having a blast.

Pete, I know this is a hypothetical, so I'll just say that I'd love to see some of the bad element removed from the hobby, but at the same time, I know now that if I exercise due diligence, and buy from reputable sellers, my chances of getting burned drops dramatically. Then, when I receive my cards, I always give them a good looking over. So, in being proactive, I'm avoiding a lot of the people that would try to scam me, or other enthusiasts.

Would the value of the cards I have and will buy drop? Maybe. I actually think that if the market were cleansed you'd see more people come back, and demand would go up. Maybe I wouldn't be able to get the cards I want at all. Imagine how many other people out there who love baseball cards would love to own a Ty Cobb, or a Walter Johnson tobacco card. It's possible you'd see people leave again for a very different reason: not enough supply to meet demand.

It is indeed a very delicate balance. I wish I could tell some of the people that would love to jump into pre-war and vintage to come here, and learn, but at the same time, I realize that in doing so, there would be more people wanting to buy the same cards I want.

[cincyredlegs]

Great topic. Let's compare the evils of the hobby today vs the late 80's/early 90's:

Common

People trimmed cards
People re-colored cards
People counterfeited cards
People pressed out creases
People re-built corners
People were un-ethical
People cheated people


Different

The value of cards

I guess what I am saying is that there always have been this element in the hobby and probably always will be. The main difference I see is the value of the cards have increased exponentially and people have more to lose.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to try and clean the hobby.

Mark

[HRBAKER]

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

Only if you have nearly unlimited play money.

Those of us with tighter budgets are always denying ourselves the stuff we want. So no big change there.


Totally clearing house would be impossible.

I do think there's less smalltime fraud now than before. Mostly because knowledge is easier to come by. The days of people trying to pass off Dover reprints as original at a show are hopefully gone.

I do think that without TPG a lot of the money will leave. The more investment driven, or those with money but not necessarily the time to learn what's good or not probably wouldn't spend without the third party opinion.

And ultimately things would revert to the early-mid 80's. Some cards wouldn't become available without the higher prices. It's one thing to keep an odd family heirloom even if you're not all that interested. It's a far different thing to do that when that money could pay for a car, house, or college.

Would the Black Swamp cards be on the market if they were worth $2 each instead of a few thousand each?
Would the Nagurskis just found be on the market if they were $10 cards?

Probably not.

The internet has changed things so much it's hard to describe.
Maybe this.
As a fairly casual collector the number of tougher T206 backs I had chances to buy between 1977 and maybe 1994
Drum 1
Uzit 0
Broadleaf 460 0
Red Hindu 0

That's all I saw back then. Granted I only went to local shows, although we had some big ones. And didn't really look all that hard. But I just didn't see any.

Since roughly 1998 when I joined Ebay.
Drum 5-6?
Uzit 5-6? Maybe more
Broadleaf 460 2?
Red Hindu Quite a few with the recent batch in a big auction, which I usually didn't even look at till recently.

The money makes getting the cards tougher for many of us. But it also makes it possible for more of us.

Unfortunately it also brings the bad guys.

Steve B

[buymycards]

A good start would be to clean up eBay. If eBay would get rid of all of the fakes it would help a lot. But that will never happen. Ebay makes just as much money from the counterfeit listings as they do on an authentic listing so why would they want to get rid of 30% of the listings in the pre-war section?

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by steve B

Unfortunately it also brings the bad guys.

Steve B

When I first graduated from merely collecting cards each summer to pursuing vintage and beyond back in the late Sixties/early Seventies, my collecting universe consisted of one collector in my home town and a half dozen additional guys around my area. Where there more? Most certainly. Unfortunately, there was no network for communication. This weeded out the casual collector as the activity was sparse and intermittent. It also made collecting a lot tougher for those of us that hung in there.

As the Seventies rolled along, mail order catalogs became part of the landscape. This extended the collector's reach and connected the hobby community a bit more. However, it also attracted mail fraud "jackasses". They could reach enough like-minded people to make it worth their while trawling for innocents. Around the same time, Card Shows came to pass, further solidifying the hobby. 99.9% of the vendors were upstanding guys, most collectors themselves. Again, sadly, the "jackasses" saw this as an opportunity to fleece the innocent. Fakes, trimming, de-creasing and corner reconstruction all found their way into our world. This is when I personally stepped away from the hobby, frustrated.

I watched from the outside as the hobby "hit the big time" and eleventy-two card companies flooded the market place with cards that promised to be an investment opportunity. Citing the values of vintage cards, they postulated that, obviously, their cards would grow in value and the same pace. Gimmicky sparkly cards, intentional short prints, and endless variations led me to believe that the "jackasses" had gone corporate, fleecing the innocent again.

The internet came to be, teethed, learned to walk and grew to what we have today. I took the opportunity to re-enter the hobby. It is the best of times. It is the worst of times. Our collector universe is immense. We communicate and deal with guys all around the country (world). My last five eBay transactions were we fellas in NJ, WI, MI, VA and WA. This many like-minded hobbyists available and the touch of a keyboard is fantastic. Ah, but the "jackasses"....... I have no concept of the monies exchanged on a daily or weekly basis in this hobby but we have certainly have reached the magic number. The pool of collector's cash has attracted not only the low tech "jackasses" but "jackasses" with the finances and technology to screw with us non-stop. The same internet that brought us together as a group of collectors has served as a "barrel" for the "jackasses " to shoot fish in. Fishing must be good. They are here to stay.

Net 54 acts as a safe place for us to circle the wagons and "pick off" the occasional "jackass". For that, Leon, I will voice the group opinion and say "Thank You". Without a site like this, many more "jackasses" would thrive. OK, I am done..........

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Cleaning up the hobby would involve denying yourself that which you want. That's where the first breakdown occurs.

I want to echo this view. People are very quick to complain about the fraud in the hobby, but when asked to refrain from giving business to those they accuse of fraud, refuse to do so. To paraphrase what one poster once send, "getting the stuff trumps all." It seems to me that a very effective way to reduce hobby fraud is to put out of business those who engage in it, which can only happen if people stop doing business with them. It would also send a clear signal to anyone else who might be considering in engaging in such activity that fraud is not a good business model.

What I will be curious to see is if, hypothetically, stuff starts to get out exposing fraud at particular AHs, will people stop doing business with them? If not, then for those people who continue to do business with these AHs, IMO they have no credibility to complain about fraud in the hobby.

[ullmandds]

This thread was meant to stimulate dialogue...nothing more!

I don't see an exodus of large enough magnitude away from those practicing corruption in the hobby to make a significant enough difference...sadly.

Stuff trumps all...I am guilty as anyone in this regard.