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  #1  
Old 10-12-2013, 08:08 PM
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perezfan perezfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob D. View Post
Mark,

You and I usually see eye-to-eye on most things, but if you're saying that an auction house bidding on an item to exercise a hidden reserve is the same (or even similar) as having a stated, transparent reserve, I disagree. The first practice can falsely imply another "real" bidder is increasing the price of an item, whereas the second practice clearly defines that the auction house/consignor has determined the minimum for which an item will sell.

Big difference, in my opinion.

Rob
Yeah, I guess you are right. As a bidder, it does seem a bit sleazy. On the filpside, I've really liked it as a consignor, because it's ensured that I won't get killed on my consignments. I would rather have the lackluster winning bid result in a "no sale" than lose a bunch of money on my consignment.

That said, I agree with you both, that it would be more straight-forward just to just start the item at the lowest acceptable level to the consignor. Heritage does the hidden reserve thing as well (in their own way).

I guess the FBI has a very fine line, in terms of what's "acceptable shilling" and what's criminal.
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  #2  
Old 10-14-2013, 05:52 AM
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sports-rings sports-rings is offline
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Quote:
We now have disclosure when an auction is selling its own stuff.
I see many advertisements for various auction houses in our hobby proclaiming "Now Buying", yet I rarely if ever see disclaimers in their auctions that they own the item.

Am I missing something?
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  #3  
Old 10-14-2013, 10:31 AM
BigJJ BigJJ is offline
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Along the lines of Michael's post above, regarding Mastro - It has not been made clear -who were the owners - of the pieces that were shill bid. In other words, were 20%, 50%, 80% of the pieces that were shill bid owned by the Company? owned by its head? I was never happy with the prices my particular pieces received. If they owned a great number of the pieces that were being shill bid, this would poke a hole also in the idea of - 'trying to do the best for our consignors'.

Last edited by BigJJ; 10-14-2013 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:28 AM
springpin springpin is offline
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We live in an accepting society. People in prominent positions as Bill Clinton, Oliver North, Elliot Spitzer, Anthony Wiener, Paula Deen, etc., fall from grace, and following a period of exile, they return refreshed, rejuvenated, and rehabilitated. Some even achieve higher recognition after their return than before. It will be argued that the people who were shilled (including me) got what they wanted, albeit they were overcharged. The Wagner card is not a reproduction or fake; it was simply trimmed years after it was originally produced. Is this fraud? Yes, but less severe than if the card itself was a reproduction. I am not a card collector, but I suspect many card collectors would rather have a trimmed card in their collection than not have the card at all. Now that we definitively know the Wagner card was trimmed, no one is alleging the card is worthless. Collecting tastes and values change over time. Perhaps years from now few will care that a card was trimmed. If I understand how cards are made, at some point in their history all cards were trimmed from sheets. I also will not be surprised if today's villains are accepted back into the hobby after a period of time. I think we place more value on the items in our collections than we have contempt for the people who overcharged us.
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:34 PM
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Springpin,
I was sort of with you until he attacked a collector on a message board, clearly showing zero remorse. If you believe the FBI, as much as $1m was ripped off consumers. Bill defends by saying that he was legitimately trying to buy the items. Then he attacks people for making money.
Until there is some recognition and remorse, I would not go near him.
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
I guess the FBI has a very fine line, in terms of what's "acceptable shilling" and what's criminal.
What about when Mastro looked at the ceiling bids of his customers and then put in a bid, from his own computer, right below it, ensuring that the bidder lost thousands of dollars (and he made money)?
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
What about when Mastro looked at the ceiling bids of his customers and then put in a bid, from his own computer, right below it, ensuring that the bidder lost thousands of dollars (and he made money)?
I would say that's on the wrong side of any "fine line."
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