Serious

yanks12025 · #1 10-10-2013, 06:40 PM

How can this bat be considered game used by Charlie? There nothing besides the autograph that connects it to him. So if I find a babe ruth signed 125 bat, does that mean its a babe ruth game used bat.

http://hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/s...=255&lotno=479

GKreindler · #2 10-10-2013, 07:38 PM

Well, game-used or not, man, he had one beautiful signature. They don't sign 'em like that no mo'.

Graig

Mark · #3 10-10-2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yanks12025

How can this bat be considered game used by Charlie? There nothing besides the autograph that connects it to him. So if I find a babe ruth signed 125 bat, does that mean its a babe ruth game used bat.

http://hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/s...=255&lotno=479

PSA/DNA says that the bat's weight and length match factory records for bats ordered for Charlie's personal use. This is usually considered to be solid grounds for putting it in the player's hands.

HRBAKER · #4 10-10-2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

PSA/DNA says that the bat's weight and length match factory records for bats ordered for Charlie's personal use. This is usually considered to be solid grounds for putting it in the player's hands.

Having said that, it isn't considered somewhat of a leap to call it "game used?"

MVSNYC · #5 10-10-2013, 10:02 PM

"PSA/DNA says that the bat's weight and length match factory records for bats ordered for Charlie's personal use. This is usually considered to be solid grounds for putting it in the player's hands."

Much more than that needed to put it in the player's hands...Not only needs to be ordered "for" Charlie, but ordered "by" Charlie...John Taube takes many factors in account to deem a bat game used, including player's ordering records, player characteristics, etc.

I have no problem with John's letter here.

BigJJ · #6 10-10-2013, 10:33 PM

There were and are literally many many hundreds/thousands of blank barrel 125s of such approximate length and weight. Are they all Gehringer game used bats? or just this one?

Gehringer died in 1993. The signature looks very recent, with a marker.

Gehringer did not play professional baseball when this bat was manufactured. The bat was manufactured between 1917 and 1921. Gehringer started playing in 1924. He was between 14 and 18 years old when this bat was made.

HRBAKER · #7 10-10-2013, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJJ

There were and are literally many many hundreds/thousands of blank barrel 125s of such approximate length and weight. Are they all Gehringer game used bats? or just this one?

Gehringer died in 1993. The signature looks very recent, with a marker.

Gehringer did not play professional baseball when this bat was manufactured. The bat was manufactured between 1917 and 1921. Gehringer started playing in 1924. He was between 14 and 18 years old when this bat was made.

I know NOTHING about bats but there are literally thousands of authentic Gehringer signatures signed in "marker." He was a prolific signer almost right up until he passed.

yanks12025 · #8 10-11-2013, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

"PSA/DNA says that the bat's weight and length match factory records for bats ordered for Charlie's personal use. This is usually considered to be solid grounds for putting it in the player's hands."

Much more than that needed to put it in the player's hands...Not only needs to be ordered "for" Charlie, but ordered "by" Charlie...John Taube takes many factors in account to deem a bat game used, including player's ordering records, player characteristics, etc.

I have no problem with John's letter here.

player characteristics???

How many players were in baseball during that time, you're telling me every single player had different player characteristics.. You don't think several would hold the bat the same, score the handle the same, etc. Pretty sad some person paid $2,300 for this bat.

MVSNYC · #9 10-11-2013, 06:18 AM

Brock/guys- my apologies...i totally missed the fact that it was a blank barrel and that the dates of his career didn't line up here, sorry. i read the LOA fast and responded. interesting...

bat_master · #10 10-11-2013, 08:08 AM

Did anyone here email John about it?

yanks12025 · #11 10-11-2013, 10:12 AM

Just did Tim. But if there was more history behind it, I'd think it world be listed.

yanks12025 · #12 10-11-2013, 11:28 AM

Here's johns comment.

We did that LOA years ago. There were a few of these bats, I believe they came from Gehringer

MVSNYC · #13 10-11-2013, 11:39 AM

I will say this. John is top notch. he takes weeks and months sometimes to properly authentic bats, i've seen him in action, very impressive process. point being, i trust his opinion. i am sure there are multiple factors that lead him to write the LOA.

yanks12025 · #14 10-11-2013, 12:03 PM

I'm not saying he isn't top notched.

perezfan · #15 10-11-2013, 12:50 PM

Agree that John is top-notch.... However....

That LOA should definitely mention it, if indeed the Bats came directly from Gehringer. That's rather important provenance which would be paramount to anyone looking to re-sell.

If that info was contained in the LOA and/or H&S Description, I am guessing the Bat would have sold for double that amount (or more).

KrenBats · #16 10-11-2013, 02:52 PM

Brock, great post. I believe that the bar has been set pretty low for what is deemed a "game used" bat and this is a great example. Much more infomation should be provided in the LOA.

As a collector of Kren bats, I see this happen all the time. One of my favorites - $5K for a DiMaggio "Game Used Bat" - http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=55533 that was offered by Kren in their retail catalog. Just because a bat's length and weigh match a player's record, it does not automatically make it a gamer.

sylbry · #17 10-11-2013, 02:55 PM

Looks like a $100 bat to with a $2200 shaky story to me.

And what might Gehringer's "player use characteristics" and how is it different from any other player of that era? It's not like they were using tape, pine tar, and numbers on the knob of the bat like more modern players that actually do help pin point a bat to being used by said player.

And second, how did whomever determine what Gehringer's characteristics were in the first place? Not like there is an abundance of close up photos of Gehringer at bat, let along any photo of Gehringer at bat.

Not picking on John here. I know John is about as good of an authority there is on vintage bats. But as a non-bat collector looking in at vintage gamers, without direct provenance to me they are all a leap of faith.

If someone wants to take the time to educate me on the above two questions it would be appreciated.

MVSNYC · #18 10-11-2013, 03:28 PM

Brock- didn't mean it that way.

Mike/Bryan- I know putting a bat in a player's hands is rather difficult, but the other very important thing John researches is if the player personally ordered that specific bat, he checks the manufacturers ordering records. I agree that it's not enough to say the bat is the right length and weight...John definitely takes it way beyond that.

Mark · #19 10-11-2013, 03:31 PM

As I understand it, Gehringer sometimes taped his bats in an unusual way, with a thin space between each spiral.

KrenBats · #20 10-11-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Brock- didn't mean it that way.

Mike/Bryan- I know putting a bat in a player's hands is rather difficult, but the other very important thing John researches is if the player personally ordered that specific bat, he checks the manufacturers ordering records. I agree that it's not enough to say the bat is the right length and weight...John definitely takes it way beyond that.

I'm not saying that John isn't an excellent bat authenticator, but if he "takes it way beyond that", put it in the LOA. As for Kren bats, there are no known factory records.

Nobody has all the information and new things are being discovered. Mistakes can be made. It's healthy for the hobby to have these debates.