A Tarnished Record

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's easy to be nostalgic and make assumptions about prior generations of ballplayers. Human nature doesn't change over time; if steroids had been available from 1900-1980 I think the same percentage of players would have been users. The 50s-60s generation used greenies because that was what was available, for example.

[deucetwins]

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

[PowderedH2O]

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

[Leon]

Drugs......? This was a trip...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14




.

[ethicsprof]

'hearing' you talk about dom, joe, Williams--and even Marilyn makes me a wee bit
jealous of your good fortune. thankfully, I was able to see musial, mays, mantle,
aaron, and a few other favorites. I haven't watched a major league game in decades.
I prefer to look at the vintage cards and photos and read the classic tomes of
baseball. Some of the recent baseball celebrities strike me at times to be akin to
those Kardashian folks. IMHO

great thread Jay.

all the best,
barry

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

I see it of no matter who holds this inconsequential distinction now.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

Interesting point there. I have to admit, I despise Bonds more than any player in the history of the game and wouldn't mind seeing his "record" broken.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Let's say that ARod somehow gets past this suspension mess with a slap on the wrist (50-65 games). He comes back and starts hitting home runs at a decent pace. Do you want him to break Bonds' record? I actually would. As big of a tool as ARod is, Barry is the king. I'd rather see ARod have the record than Bonds. I'd rather see ANYONE in baseball break Big Head's records.

nope. There IS a record of just how great Bonds was without juice. He was a no-doubt Hall of Famer. There is no such record with Arod. Bond does NOT deserve to be the HR King. That's Aaron's crown (although I think Mays would have been much better than Aaron when you figure in the horrific HR parks Mays had to play in). I do have a bit of sympathy for Bonds in that... He KNEW he was the best player in baseball when McGwire and Sosa went on their roid-induced HR chase. They got all the pub and the glory and Bonds, being the maniacal egotist that he is, turned to steroids in reply. I only saw the best ever (Mays) play at the last few years of his career.. but Bonds was the best player I've ever seen... When he got to the Giants, he was, by all accounts, clean and he was dominating. He tarnished his own legacy and that's such a shame, because he was a HOF lock... now? Not so much.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

Alcohol is a way to gain an edge? Maybe to gain a hangover. Imagine Alexander and Mantle without it. Now if only I can get the county cops to believe that alcohol enhances my driving performance.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Gambling on or throwing games will get you banned. Baseball has never looked kindly on these two related topics since the 19th century. Spitters, corked bats, emory boards, alcohol (Grover Cleveland Alexander), and now Steroids or PEDs are seen as ways to cheat and/or gain an edge. Both of the two situations described above ruin the integrity of the game, but why has one been historically treated much differently than the other?

Good point. Many Hall of Fame players were known to have doctored the ball with substances, sharpened belt buckles, rings and the like. That cheating is more or less accepted. Not if they are caught at in in a game perhaps but certainly it hasn't kept Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford and others out of Cooperstown. What about the bowls full of amphetamines in locker rooms in the 60s? Weren't they PEDs?

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's easy to be nostalgic and make assumptions about prior generations of ballplayers. Human nature doesn't change over time; if steroids had been available from 1900-1980 I think the same percentage of players would have been users. The 50s-60s generation used greenies because that was what was available, for example.

I agree with this totally. We adapted to the Wild Card when purists went nuts. We adapted to the 162 game season. They used to play best of 9 in the world series. Spitballs were commonplace. Spiking was normalcy.

I dont think the juicers are going anywhere. They will keep coming up with ways to go undetected and break more and more records.

I still love the game, the history and the cards. I stopped worrying a while ago about the cheaters and just trained my mind to accept that the majority of the league cheats in some way.

Peter was correct. It's naive to think that Cobb, Ruth, Wagner etc would not have used an added edge if it was provided to them.

Hal Chase and the Black Sox got caught, but how many others went unpunished like A-Rod?

[HRBAKER]

So it's ok to cheat bc everyone would have if they could have?

Or...

I should be cautious about holding Gehrig in higher esteem than ARod bc I should assume that had he had the same opportunity to cheat/self-enhance he would of?

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So it's ok to cheat bc everyone would have if they could have?

Or...

I should be cautious about holding Gehrig in higher esteem than ARod bc I should assume that had he had the same opportunity to cheat/self-enhance he would of?

I didn't say it was OK. I just said it is a fact and it's not going away. I also never said any specific player would have cheated but that there was rampant cheating going on and one is being naive if they think no early players would have juiced if they had the opportunity.

We seem to deify the pre-war players but history is chocked full of guys that cheated from all eras.