Piedmont 150 plate scratch(es) progress

[Jantz]

Sorry Steve, not Piedmont backs, but I found a few Polar Bears with a plate scratch. Both fronts are the same player.

So how is the research going on the Piedmont plate scratches?


Jantz

[t206blogcom]

That's my Scott Polar Bear and it's currently on sale!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Sorry Steve, not Piedmont backs, but I found a few Polar Bears with a plate scratch. Both fronts are the same player.

So how is the research going on the Piedmont plate scratches?


Jantz

That's cool! I'm interested in any odd marks, especially ones that there are a few copies to show it's a constant mark. I only started with P150 because there are so many of them.

The research has been going slow. I've found a few more, but still not as many as someone else had a while ago. (I forget who at the moment.)

I have seen some interesting ones.
A criger with some of the top of the back doubled. And not by just a little, the very top is shifted by the width of the curl at the upper right.

Goodwin has a Donlin currently that appears to show some efforts to repair the scratch. It looks like they erased the parts in the border and the main area of the back leaving it in the striped frame.

And one I'm still looking at, which looks like the scratch carried over into the 350 series. OR more likely remaining after the plate was resurfaced and reused.

I've also seen a few things that make me believe there were multiple sheet layouts. Especially Cobb, where there are cards that appear to be from the top, with others below. But at least one looks like it was in the bottom row.


I'm switching from IE to Firefox mostly because the ads appear in the history differently. With IE even having doubleclick.net blocked I still have to click the back button 3 times to return to the list from an item. No problem with Firefox, but it's going to take some getting used to.

Steve B

[z28jd]

Have Steve, have you noticed the double lines on Hannifan that seem fairly common on the Pied 350? Interesting mark.

[steve B]

I've seen those. I can't recall if I've seen them on Hannifan, but I think I have scans of it on at least a couple different fronts.

Doing the 350 series will be a long term project. Maybe more than one persons lifetime. The level of complexity is that big.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Steve i am up to 178 different ones that i have found most of them are legitamate plate scratches a few may be questionable i plan on trying to match some more
up over the winter i have found a few more matching pairs when i get them together I will post them. Here are scans of some of them in alphabetical order i hope you can make them out lately the scans get reduced by quite a bit when I post them.

[Pat R]

Group 2

[Pat R]

Group 3

[Pat R]

Group 4

[steve B]

That's fantastic.

You can always Email me the big scans. The board shrinks them a bit too much to see most of the marks.


Guys- Pat is amazing at finding these. He's found way more than I have. It's also great that he's keeping front scans too. They're more subtle, but the fronts are usually identifiable as going with a particular mark on the back.

The overall puzzle is so big it really will take several of us working at it. I'm hopeful we can eventually sort out the 150 series, and even without the scratches the 350-460 series should be doable too. I don't think the 350's will be sorted out for a long time. Maybe my kids will help finish those off.

Steve B

[t206hound]

I've scanned a bunch of raws lately for sale... but this was the only 150 with a scratch

[thehoodedcoder]

i have almost every piedmont 150 card. i will take a look for you on this. i feel like i have one or two. i just don't feel like digging them all out right now and putting them all back.

i will get back to you.

kevin

[steve B]

Any time is fine, it's a very long term project. Next time you're looking at them or adding one would be perfect.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Hi guys I just wanted to say that I know many of you are skeptical about
this or don't care, but I think this is a very solid theory that steve has come up
with. Along With this the miscuts and the two name cards I think there is a very good chance of coming up
with a sheet layout.

[atx840]

Definitely agree Pat. Ill post my sheet mate groupings when I get home, this might help separate them a bit more and from there start to place cards in their sheet location.

Great work Pat and Steve.

[atx840]

The P150s were printed a few times with player changes, the following groups make up the entire P150 subset. If we can catalogue identical scratches on different fronts then those cards were likely in the same location on different sheet.

These groupings can help separate even further which fronts were on different sheets.

[Pat R]

Chris thanks for posting that. Take a look at the Criger and H Davis in the scans I sent you besides the plate scratch look at the mark on the lower right hand side of both of them.

[Luke]

Here's a Willis Portrait with a plate scratch:

[steve B]

Thanks Luke. I think that's a new one.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Steve here are some statistics on the ones I have scans of so far.

From the top of the card down

horizontal right to left-51
horizontal L-R-70
vertical R-L 37
vertical L-R 19

I think the vertical L-R could be a key group since they only represent
12 different players with 3 possible matching pairs.

[Texxxx]

Here is a Jordan. Not sure if you have it or not.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

Here is a Jordan. Not sure if you have it or not.

I didn't have Jordan, I think Pat has one.

Still nice to see another scan.

Some cards I've seen seem to show some efforts at repair. Finding one showing the scratch, and another showing the repaired version would be interesting.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Steve here are some statistics on the ones I have scans of so far.

From the top of the card down

horizontal right to left-51
horizontal L-R-70
vertical R-L 37
vertical L-R 19

I think the vertical L-R could be a key group since they only represent
12 different players with 3 possible matching pairs.

The direction was the way I started organizing them. That lasted until I started finding the ones with crossing scratches.

I'm working on adding the scans you sent to the scans I have, and then making a bunch of new puzzle pieces. I'm also going to make a couple grids to lay them out on. At least one for each of the major sheet layout theories.

Steve B

[z28jd]

Ever so slightly off the main topic, but since Steve mentioned he is working on the 350's, this might be a little help. Butler with crop marks in the top and bottom left corners. Tough to find the same player with diff crop marks on the same back

[atx840]

Thanks for sharing.

Butler could be an edge card and and one of these was from the top most card in the vertical stack and one at the bottom.

It would help if we could get a list started of all cards with crop/alignment markings on the reverse.

[Pat R]

Chris
I started keeping a list of the piedmont 150's that I have seen with crop marks.

The first few I didn't note which way the mark went. Tinker (hands on knees)
is by far the one I have seen the most of.

Here is the list I have

Devlin-top left
Karger-Rt side
Griffith-top left
Tinker (hok) -bottom left horizontal
Chase (pink)-vertical & horizontal corner mark
Jones Tom-top rt
Shaw- top and bottom rt vertical
McGraw (port)- bottom right horizontal
Lajoie (port)-top rt vertical
Lajoie (throwing)-top rt horizontal
Lake-bottom left horizontal
McGraw (port)-top rt
Mcintyre-bottom left horizontal
Matty (white cap)-bottom left horizontal
Turner-top left vertical
Turner-top left horizontal
Gilbertt-top left vertical & horizontal corner
Lajoie (throwing)-bottom rt horizontal
Waddell (throwing)-bottom left horizontal
Oldring-bottom right horizontal
ames (hands at chest)-bottom rt horizontal

[z28jd]

I'm sure I have more P150 since I collect crop mark cards, but the only scan I have is a cool one you can add to your list

[Pat R]

That is a nice one.

I only have the Shaw and a McGraw from the list.

[Luke]

Just got this one:

[abothebear]

I my be revealing my ignorance by asking this question, but I have no problem admitting my ignorance up front, so: Are there any conclusive neighbors verified in the 350 plate scratch group that overlap with the know subjects in the Lash's Bitters scrap puzzle? http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=192935

George

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by Pat R

That is a nice one.

I only have the Shaw and a McGraw from the list.

I have a McGraw (No cap) as well.

[t206blogcom]

Noticed my Bresnahan has some lines:

[Jobu]

Just came across a Cobb on Ebay with two large back scratches:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Pi...item20ec9b0abc

I downloaded and posted pictures of it so they are saved here for posterity.

[wolf441]

Great catch Bryan!! Two really strong scratch lines. Hopefully they will help identify some of the surrounding cards.

[t206hound]

The cobb has been previously identified, but always great to see a large image preserved:

See this thread which shows the two Cobb backs:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=163034

Here's the cobb that's above the one you showed:
http://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-ca....s#76917691903

[Jobu]

Three Finger Brown with a different scratch than the card on page one of this thread.

[CrazyDiamond]

picked this one up at the show today. I am fairly new to the t206 game.

What does this mean? Does it affect value? Thanks for any help. Sorry like i said I am new to t206s

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by CrazyDiamond

picked this one up at the show today. I am fairly new to the t206 game.



What does this mean? Does it affect value? Thanks for any help. Sorry like i said I am new to t206s

Has no affect on value. Those participating in the thread are using these backs in attempt to determine sheet layouts.

Nice pickup... Did you buy it raw, or submit to SGC on site?

[CrazyDiamond]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Has no affect on value. Those participating in the thread are using these backs in attempt to determine sheet layouts.

Nice pickup... Did you buy it raw, or submit to SGC on site?

Thanks for the info - pretty excited about it. i heard about the plate scratches but wasn't really sure what it meant. I hope i contributed.

bought it raw at the show. SGC was doing an on site special.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by CrazyDiamond

Thanks for the info - pretty excited about it. i heard about the plate scratches but wasn't really sure what it meant. I hope i contributed.

bought it raw at the show. SGC was doing an on site special.

I'm pretty sure you were sitting at the SGC table when I picked up my cards. Very nice.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CrazyDiamond

Thanks for the info - pretty excited about it. i heard about the plate scratches but wasn't really sure what it meant. I hope i contributed.

bought it raw at the show. SGC was doing an on site special.

Even pics of another example contribute.

There's a lot more to figure out past the sheet layout.

The scratches can be more obvious or less even for the same card. So the plate -if it was a stone could have been resurfaced when it wore out and the scratches partly polished off. (I think it's possible, and some of the same scratches may have survived faintly into the 350 series.

Combined with front differences that might eventually lead to understanding print runs within the currently accepted ones.

While there's no real premium right now, I think eventually - like maybe 20 years from now. There will be an ability to sort of super specialize, and some fronts with the scratch may be much tougher than others. And if the scratch happened very late in production any scratch may prove to be fairly tough compared to a card without it.
It's just way too early to tell.

Steve B

[CrazyDiamond]

Originally Posted by steve B

Even pics of another example contribute.

There's a lot more to figure out past the sheet layout.

The scratches can be more obvious or less even for the same card. So the plate -if it was a stone could have been resurfaced when it wore out and the scratches partly polished off. (I think it's possible, and some of the same scratches may have survived faintly into the 350 series.

Combined with front differences that might eventually lead to understanding print runs within the currently accepted ones.

While there's no real premium right now, I think eventually - like maybe 20 years from now. There will be an ability to sort of super specialize, and some fronts with the scratch may be much tougher than others. And if the scratch happened very late in production any scratch may prove to be fairly tough compared to a card without it.



Steve B

Thanks for the info. Im fairly new to t206s and prewar cards so any info for me is great. I will keep my eye out for these and update if i come across any
It's just way too early to tell.

[CrazyDiamond]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I'm pretty sure you were sitting at the SGC table when I picked up my cards. Very nice.

Thanks - yeah i bought it late in the day and submitted at the show. Picked it up just as dealers were packing up. Didnt expect to add another cobb but was happy about this pick up. Really thought i would get a 2 on this but can't complain

[Jobu]

Schulte, not huge but it is there on the lower left

[freakhappy]

durham front.jpgdurham back.jpg

[Jobu]

Another Three Finger, same pose, different scratch

[Jcfowler6]

Not sure if this counts but was looking thru my cards and saw a possible scratch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luke]

Just noticed my new Waddell Throwing has a scratch:

[GoldenAge50s]

Found a nice card today with a big plate scratch, a P150 of "Turkey Mike" Donlin.

Hope this helps the cause in some way or another:

[Sean]

Fred, nice Donlin, with or without the scratches.