JSA and PSA/DNA are the best things to happen to this hobby

[shelly]

The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by shelly

The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?

And just try and get the one who authenticated your item on the phone, to ask about your item.
Good luck with that.

[Lordstan]

David, Richard, Darren, and Chuck,
Thanks guys.
I agree with you Chuck, in that many here agree with many of the points Travis made. Personally, my only dealings with him were positive as he willingly gave me some assistance on a couple of boxing autos. Unfortunately, he, IMHO, was not good at expressing his ideas in a calm and rational manner. To me, a lot of what he wrote came off as ranting, even though I agreed with a good chunk of the underlying message. I think, in many ways, it's too bad he's gone, as I think he does have a lot of knowledge.


Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.

From PSA's Website...

Why PSA/DNA?

The Advantage of PSA/DNA Authentication Services
PSA/DNA Letters of Authenticity are accepted by ALL major auction houses. They include, but are not limited to, Sotheby's, SCP Auctions, Heritage, Legendary, Mile High Card Company, R&R Enterprises and Memory Lane, Inc.

Premium Price and Liquidity
Because potential buyers feel more comfortable purchasing certified items, PSA/DNA collectibles often sell for premium prices due to the strength and credibility of the PSA/DNA brand. Many of the most valuable collectibles in the world have been certified by PSA/DNA. Click here for a list of record breakers.

Why PSADNA Confidence
Buyers can be confident that PSA/DNA collectibles have been witnessed or examined for authenticity by the world's leading autograph experts.

Certified for Life
Because PSA/DNA uses an invisible, permanent DNA marker, the authenticity is easily verified.

Verification
The unique certification number can be used to verify the history of any PSA/DNA Certified item simply by typing in the serial number online.

PSA/DNA's covert DNA-laced ink is extremely durable and almost impossible to replicate! The chance of duplicating our DNA strand is 1 in 33 trillion!

Recertification is easy! Items with lost certificates or missing labels can be verified. We simply check for the DNA using our specially calibrated laser and issue a new label and certificate!

Take the next step and Submit to PSA and PSA/DNA!


From JSA's website...

Why Should I Choose JSA?


Benefits included with every JSA authenticated item:

JSA Letter's of Authenticity are guaranteed to be accepted by all collectors, dealers, and auction houses worldwide, or your submission fee will be reimbursed.
JSA is an eBay approved autograph authenticator.
Increased value and a confident buyer for faster sale of autographed memorabilia.
JSA's extensive autograph exemplar database is second to none in the autograph industry.
Peace of mind that your memorabilia is deemed authentic and ready to be sold, passed along to a family member, or cherished forever.
Secure, virtually impossible to replicate proprietary watermark JSA Letter of Authenticity with corresponding high-resolution image and a unique alpha-numeric certification sticker.

Quick and simple online confirmation of your JSA certification number.
All JSA Letters of Authenticity are fully transferable without resubmission.
JSA's services are utilized by more major auction houses than any other autograph authentication company in the world including:



As I read the above closely, I find it curious that the first reason listed to use their authentication services is not making sure your item is real, but having being accepted by all the major auction houses and eBay! Authenticity isn't even the second reason. Apparently, increasing resale value is also more important than finding out if your item is real. WOW.

From Wiki...

Authentication (from Greek: αὐθεντικός; real or genuine, from αὐθέντης authentes; author) is the act of confirming the truth of an attribute of a datum or entity. This might involve confirming the identity of a person or software program, tracing the origins of an artifact, or ensuring that a product is what its packaging and labeling claims to be. Authentication often involves verifying the validity of at least one form of identification.

I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."

To reinforce what I stated before and what Shelly just restated, in PSA's listing they claim that your item is examined by the world's leading experts. Who? They won't say who examined what item, so how do any of us know? Maybe because they crossed their heart and promised!

All I want is for them to deliver on the service we expect. I'm not expecting perfection, but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.

Apparently that is far too much for you to expect. That is a shame ain't it.
Only expect to hand over your money and let them do what they want.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.

The volume has a lot to do with it. Mass marketing and mass production happen in many fields, and just like in those fields, when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed. That is a consumer's choice. The TPAs are losing your business but gaining countless others because of their efficiency. Some people just don't care so much. This ain't medicine, man, on any level really.

Let me ask you this: Who does a better job at authenticating autos than these
TPAs? There may be several people you can name. I could, too. Now, how many autos are they authenticating? To take a proximal example, I trust the opinion of Mr. Simon here way more than the generic face of these TPAs, but if we started asking him to cert the sheer volume that PSA/DNA is handling, he simply wouldn't be able to do it. Would he hire people? Would he train people? Would he turn the business down? Who knows, but something would have to happen to his business model.

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."

Correct in spirit, but wrong in execution. We need not change the definition of authentication, but recognize that what the TPAs do is something different. If they were authenticating only, their fees would not directly correlate with the value of an autograph. Yet they do exactly that. TPAs, in effect, take a percentage of a potential selling price of an auto with their stamp. In that regard, they are more akin to marketers than authenticators. View them that way and you may see that their business model is not as broken as you think.

That doesn't mean you have to like them. They can be ignored like most other facets of this hobby.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

...when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed.

...they are more akin to marketers than authenticators.

Yep. It's all fine for the players in that game, and for the most part, even for the educated collector who disregards COA's.

However, one problem I can see would be if I received a PSA or JSA-authenticated item that once in hand, I determined to be a forgery. It might be tougher to return, simply because of the COA.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yep. It's all fine for the players in that game, and for the most part, even for the educated collector who disregards COA's.

However, one problem I can see would be if I received a PSA or JSA-authenticated item that once in hand, I determined to be a forgery. It might be tougher to return, simply because of the COA.

+1

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

The volume has a lot to do with it. Mass marketing and mass production happen in many fields, and just like in those fields, when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed. That is a consumer's choice. The TPAs are losing your business but gaining countless others because of their efficiency. Some people just don't care so much. This ain't medicine, man, on any level really.

The problem with this line of thought is that people aren't getting this service at a cheaper price. If everybody was paying $5 per, I would probably agree with you that you get what you pay for. The problem is that people are paying full price and getting half quality with possible bias.
While I know this isn't medicine, there are certain parallels. Customers pay for a service and expect a certain level of both quality and speed. There is an old business axiom I learned a while ago that fits here. Products and services can be cheap, good, and fast, but customers will only get 2 out of 3. For example, if a product or service is fast and cheap, it probably won't be good, and so on. Well the TPAs don't even follow this because they are fast but certainly not cheap and whether or not you see them as good is iffy.

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Correct in spirit, but wrong in execution. We need not change the definition of authentication, but recognize that what the TPAs do is something different. If they were authenticating only, their fees would not directly correlate with the value of an autograph. Yet they do exactly that. TPAs, in effect, take a percentage of a potential selling price of an auto with their stamp. In that regard, they are more akin to marketers than authenticators. View them that way and you may see that their business model is not as broken as you think.

That doesn't mean you have to like them. They can be ignored like most other facets of this hobby.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment. People don't care if the TPAs are right or wrong, because the only reason they are using their service is to increase resale prices. Perhaps PSA and JSA should change their names to PSM and JSM, Professional Sports Marketing and James Spence Marketing respectively. If we all accept that they are just expert marketers, then all this discussion stops, as any mistake, whether innocent, sloppy, or careless, and any evidence of bias becomes immaterial. After all, a marketer doesn't have to have any expertise in the authenticity of a product. They just have to know how to make it sell. I must give credit where credit is due and the TPAs certainly know how to market.

I have to say, I'm not sure if the general public realizes all of this. Usually, if I am selling something that doesn't have a cert, which is 99% of the stuff I sell, people will ask how can they be sure it's authentic if it doesn't have a cert. To me, this implies that they actually think the cert means that someone who is an expert reviewed the item and thinks its what I claim it is. Often times to give them some level of comfort, I'll even offer a refund if it doesn't pass one of them.

You are right. The business model isn't broken for them, but it is for us the consumers, that's why we complain. Unfortunately, it's impossible to ignore them if you're into autograph collecting, because they effect you either way. If you use them, the price of the item goes up, if for no other reason that to recoup the cost of the cert fees. This costs me more money when I am buying for my collection. If you don't use them, it makes things more difficult to sell, if your name isn't well known like Stinson, Simon, Cocoran, Keating, Marks, etc.