JSA and PSA/DNA are the best things to happen to this hobby

[Exhibitman]

Yes, but...condemning all legit TPGs for making the occasional mistake is like condemning all doctors because sometimes patients do not recover or condemning air travel because every so often there is a crash. Mistakes will happen--like letting Travis post here--because all human Endeavors are imperfect [even a Space Shuttle blew up]. The bigger question for any service is whether on the whole it provides value or not. For many collectors TPGs do so. The fact that we can pick out TPG errors and recall them is because there are relatively few of them as compared to the volume of items handled. It just doesn't make good gossip when PSA or JSA gets it right, which they do the vast majority of the time.

[Runscott]

Adam, your points are well-made, but I don't express my TPA concerns because it makes good gossip. If the airlines had a similar failure rate, I would express my dismay and point out obvious problems if I knew them. The reason the TPAs get away with poor performance is that their customers aren't all knowledgeable enough to notice the 'crashes'.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Yes, but...condemning all legit TPGs for making the occasional mistake is like condemning all doctors because sometimes patients do not recover or condemning air travel because every so often there is a crash. Mistakes will happen--like letting Travis post here--because all human Endeavors are imperfect [even a Space Shuttle blew up]. The bigger question for any service is whether on the whole it provides value or not. For many collectors TPGs do so. The fact that we can pick out TPG errors and recall them is because there are relatively few of them as compared to the volume of items handled. It just doesn't make good gossip when PSA or JSA gets it right, which they do the vast majority of the time.

Adam,
Your response made think about a few things and have a few more questions.

You use the phrase "Legit TPGs" What other legit TPGs are you referring to? The title of this thread is specific to JSA and PSA/DNA, as was my post. Let's be frank...There really aren't any other legit TPGs that have any significant amount of usage in the hobby. We all know the deal with Morales, STAT, Taylor, ACE, Priddy, Max, etc, so they're not whom we are talking about.

Your example using doctors and air travel really doesn't fit with what I wrote. I stated that having a service to provide authenticity opinions is fine as long as the quality of the service is there. I have what I think are a couple more appropriate examples.
1) Suppose there was a surgeon who had done a 1000 surgeries in his lifetime, but cut off the wrong leg on 2 different patients. Would you have a lot of confidence in that doctor, even though his success rate was 99.8%? Would you want to know he cut off the wrong leg twice? Don't you think that would be important information?
So the big guys can get all the Bo Diaz's, Doug Flynn's, Orlando Merced's, etc of the world right, which boosts their accuracy %, but they can't get ONE 30 thousand dollar autograph correct when it's as simple as being misspelled?? I'm supposed to look at this and say...I'm not worried, he only cut off the wrong leg twice, he got all the rest right! He's the best thing to happen to the medical profession. Suuuure.

2) How about an airline that has had 2 crashes in 1000 flights, both due to the fact that they bought inferior parts to save money? Now suppose that supplier was from a company run by the CEO's brother? Would you cry bias? Would you think that this airline was a net positive to the airline industry?

3) Suppose I came to a law firm as a new client. The lead guy I speak to sells me on his skill and I engaged his services. He then proceeds to give all the work to his associate, who hands it to the courts or me without the lead attorney's review. I go on to lose my case, not because no one can win every case, but because the associate has made some critical error or oversight. Now, I'm mad. Why? Well, I was sold on the head guys skill as a lawyer, but I got someone else's work. I realize that associates and assistants do a lot of the ground work, but I expect oversight from the lead attorney. Sure, the associate graduated from Law School and passed the Bar, but that doesn't mean he has the skill and experience that I was expecting when I hired the lead lawyer. Same with these guys. Sure Spence's and the guys at PSA names are on the letter, but whose work am I actually getting? Just because the reviewers collected autographs, maybe got some training in house, and have an exemplar file to look at doesn't mean that they are skilled at authentication.

If I hire Jim Stinson or Richard Simon to authenticate an autograph, I know whose opinion I am getting. I can speak with them and they will inform me as to why they feel the way they do. Unfortunately, most of the non serious collecting public don't know who they are, certs from them aren't viewed in the same way as PSA/JSA.
The big boys want to be paid for their opinions as experts, yet want no responsibility for the consequences of the decisions that are made based upon those opinions. As a family physician, I am paid for my expert opinions as well. The difference is that I am held responsible for the outcomes of my recommendations. This is especially true if my recommendations were made with carelessness, bias, sloppiness, and greed. Hell, some people will try to sue doctors for honest mistakes or poor outcomes, even though any outcome can never be guaranteed in the first place. So if I can be held accountable for my actions, why can't they? We are all PAYING for a service, I think it is reasonable and our right to question the quality of that service.
Again, I'm not saying they don't most correct, but the apparent reasons they get some wrong certainly don't inspire confidence.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Adam,
Your response made think about a few things and have a few more questions.

You use the phrase "Legit TPGs" What other legit TPGs are you referring to? The title of this thread is specific to JSA and PSA/DNA, as was my post. Let's be frank...There really aren't any other legit TPGs that have any significant amount of usage in the hobby. We all know the deal with Morales, STAT, Taylor, ACE, Priddy, Max, etc, so they're not whom we are talking about.

Your example using doctors and air travel really doesn't fit with what I wrote. I stated that having a service to provide authenticity opinions is fine as long as the quality of the service is there. I have what I think are a couple more appropriate examples.
1) Suppose there was a surgeon who had done a 1000 surgeries in his lifetime, but cut off the wrong leg on 2 different patients. Would you have a lot of confidence in that doctor, even though his success rate was 99.8%? Would you want to know he cut off the wrong leg twice? Don't you think that would be important information?
So the big guys can get all the Bo Diaz's, Doug Flynn's, Orlando Merced's, etc of the world right, which boosts their accuracy %, but they can't get ONE 30 thousand dollar autograph correct when it's as simple as being misspelled?? I'm supposed to look at this and say...I'm not worried, he only cut off the wrong leg twice, he got all the rest right! He's the best thing to happen to the medical profession. Suuuure.

2) How about an airline that has had 2 crashes in 1000 flights, both due to the fact that they bought inferior parts to save money? Now suppose that supplier was from a company run by the CEO's brother? Would you cry bias? Would you think that this airline was a net positive to the airline industry?

3) Suppose I came to a law firm as a new client. The lead guy I speak to sells me on his skill and I engaged his services. He then proceeds to give all the work to his associate, who hands it to the courts or me without the lead attorney's review. I go on to lose my case, not because no one can win every case, but because the associate has made some critical error or oversight. Now, I'm mad. Why? Well, I was sold on the head guys skill as a lawyer, but I got someone else's work. I realize that associates and assistants do a lot of the ground work, but I expect oversight from the lead attorney. Sure, the associate graduated from Law School and passed the Bar, but that doesn't mean he has the skill and experience that I was expecting when I hired the lead lawyer. Same with these guys. Sure Spence's and the guys at PSA names are on the letter, but whose work am I actually getting? Just because the reviewers collected autographs, maybe got some training in house, and have an exemplar file to look at doesn't mean that they are skilled at authentication.

If I hire Jim Stinson or Richard Simon to authenticate an autograph, I know whose opinion I am getting. I can speak with them and they will inform me as to why they feel the way they do. Unfortunately, most of the non serious collecting public don't know who they are, certs from them aren't viewed in the same way as PSA/JSA.
The big boys want to be paid for their opinions as experts, yet want no responsibility for the consequences of the decisions that are made based upon those opinions. As a family physician, I am paid for my expert opinions as well. The difference is that I am held responsible for the outcomes of my recommendations. This is especially true if my recommendations were made with carelessness, bias, sloppiness, and greed. Hell, some people will try to sue doctors for honest mistakes or poor outcomes, even though any outcome can never be guaranteed in the first place. So if I can be held accountable for my actions, why can't they? We are all PAYING for a service, I think it is reasonable and our right to question the quality of that service.
Again, I'm not saying they don't most correct, but the apparent reasons they get some wrong certainly don't inspire confidence.

Very well said.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Very well said.

agreed, as It stands, should I EVER buy another autograph, it will simply be from Jim or Richard...end of story.

If Big, dumb and stupid is reading this...you see big, dumb and stupid, people agree with you. This is why your head is so fat and hard. You can't even rally people behind you that believe in what you are doing. You jumped the shark so long ago, and now to team with the only jerk-off crooks that will have you, IMHO. It is just a pleasure to not to have to deal with you on any respectable blog going forward. Glad you decided to stop posting here as it is so much more enjoyable for everyone. Please continue with the Kumbaya Connection and never come back to this site.

Nice posts and symbolic of "another side" besides obvious forgeries, of what's troubling the autograph hobby.

[shelly]

The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by shelly

The other problem that no one has mentioned. Who actually does the authenticating on an item. It is the same B. S. signitures on all ther coa's. If I am paying top dollar should I not have the top man do it. Not some guy they just hired yesterday?

And just try and get the one who authenticated your item on the phone, to ask about your item.
Good luck with that.

[Lordstan]

David, Richard, Darren, and Chuck,
Thanks guys.
I agree with you Chuck, in that many here agree with many of the points Travis made. Personally, my only dealings with him were positive as he willingly gave me some assistance on a couple of boxing autos. Unfortunately, he, IMHO, was not good at expressing his ideas in a calm and rational manner. To me, a lot of what he wrote came off as ranting, even though I agreed with a good chunk of the underlying message. I think, in many ways, it's too bad he's gone, as I think he does have a lot of knowledge.


Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.

From PSA's Website...

Why PSA/DNA?

The Advantage of PSA/DNA Authentication Services
PSA/DNA Letters of Authenticity are accepted by ALL major auction houses. They include, but are not limited to, Sotheby's, SCP Auctions, Heritage, Legendary, Mile High Card Company, R&R Enterprises and Memory Lane, Inc.

Premium Price and Liquidity
Because potential buyers feel more comfortable purchasing certified items, PSA/DNA collectibles often sell for premium prices due to the strength and credibility of the PSA/DNA brand. Many of the most valuable collectibles in the world have been certified by PSA/DNA. Click here for a list of record breakers.

Why PSADNA Confidence
Buyers can be confident that PSA/DNA collectibles have been witnessed or examined for authenticity by the world's leading autograph experts.

Certified for Life
Because PSA/DNA uses an invisible, permanent DNA marker, the authenticity is easily verified.

Verification
The unique certification number can be used to verify the history of any PSA/DNA Certified item simply by typing in the serial number online.

PSA/DNA's covert DNA-laced ink is extremely durable and almost impossible to replicate! The chance of duplicating our DNA strand is 1 in 33 trillion!

Recertification is easy! Items with lost certificates or missing labels can be verified. We simply check for the DNA using our specially calibrated laser and issue a new label and certificate!

Take the next step and Submit to PSA and PSA/DNA!


From JSA's website...

Why Should I Choose JSA?


Benefits included with every JSA authenticated item:

JSA Letter's of Authenticity are guaranteed to be accepted by all collectors, dealers, and auction houses worldwide, or your submission fee will be reimbursed.
JSA is an eBay approved autograph authenticator.
Increased value and a confident buyer for faster sale of autographed memorabilia.
JSA's extensive autograph exemplar database is second to none in the autograph industry.
Peace of mind that your memorabilia is deemed authentic and ready to be sold, passed along to a family member, or cherished forever.
Secure, virtually impossible to replicate proprietary watermark JSA Letter of Authenticity with corresponding high-resolution image and a unique alpha-numeric certification sticker.

Quick and simple online confirmation of your JSA certification number.
All JSA Letters of Authenticity are fully transferable without resubmission.
JSA's services are utilized by more major auction houses than any other autograph authentication company in the world including:



As I read the above closely, I find it curious that the first reason listed to use their authentication services is not making sure your item is real, but having being accepted by all the major auction houses and eBay! Authenticity isn't even the second reason. Apparently, increasing resale value is also more important than finding out if your item is real. WOW.

From Wiki...

Authentication (from Greek: αὐθεντικός; real or genuine, from αὐθέντης authentes; author) is the act of confirming the truth of an attribute of a datum or entity. This might involve confirming the identity of a person or software program, tracing the origins of an artifact, or ensuring that a product is what its packaging and labeling claims to be. Authentication often involves verifying the validity of at least one form of identification.

I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."

To reinforce what I stated before and what Shelly just restated, in PSA's listing they claim that your item is examined by the world's leading experts. Who? They won't say who examined what item, so how do any of us know? Maybe because they crossed their heart and promised!

All I want is for them to deliver on the service we expect. I'm not expecting perfection, but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

but I don't think I'm unreasonable asking for some transparency and the elimination of bias.

Apparently that is far too much for you to expect. That is a shame ain't it.
Only expect to hand over your money and let them do what they want.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Wayne,
Sorry guy, but I have to disagree with one thing you stated. The volume of autos they handle is absolutely not a factor. If they accept more than they can certify, that is entirely their problem. I couldn't care what their volume is, and it shouldn't be the customer's problem. They are selling a service based on expertise, not relative expertise based on how busy they are. For them to fall back on, well, we did the best that we could considering how many we have to do, is entirely BS. As a physician, I am not going to be cut any slack, when I misdiagnose your illness just because I tried to see 50 people in 4 hours. If you're paying the same money for that appointment as you would if I only saw 10 people in 4hrs, you'd expect the same quality of care. If they can't maintain their business by doing lower volume and ensuring the quality they promise, then perhaps they should get a new business model.

The volume has a lot to do with it. Mass marketing and mass production happen in many fields, and just like in those fields, when a consumer wants quantity at a cheaper price, quality is sacrificed. That is a consumer's choice. The TPAs are losing your business but gaining countless others because of their efficiency. Some people just don't care so much. This ain't medicine, man, on any level really.

Let me ask you this: Who does a better job at authenticating autos than these
TPAs? There may be several people you can name. I could, too. Now, how many autos are they authenticating? To take a proximal example, I trust the opinion of Mr. Simon here way more than the generic face of these TPAs, but if we started asking him to cert the sheer volume that PSA/DNA is handling, he simply wouldn't be able to do it. Would he hire people? Would he train people? Would he turn the business down? Who knows, but something would have to happen to his business model.

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I guess we should add to the definition "To make more valuable. To increase resale value."

Correct in spirit, but wrong in execution. We need not change the definition of authentication, but recognize that what the TPAs do is something different. If they were authenticating only, their fees would not directly correlate with the value of an autograph. Yet they do exactly that. TPAs, in effect, take a percentage of a potential selling price of an auto with their stamp. In that regard, they are more akin to marketers than authenticators. View them that way and you may see that their business model is not as broken as you think.

That doesn't mean you have to like them. They can be ignored like most other facets of this hobby.