JSA and PSA/DNA are the best things to happen to this hobby

[joed25]

They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by joed25

They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.

Not sure of the percentage, probably close....but otherwise, agree.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by joed25

They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.

Is that so? And how long have you been involved in "the hobby"?

[joed25]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Is that so? And how long have you been involved in "the hobby"?

Is what so?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by joed25

Is what so?

Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."

[johnmh71]

Their percentage is probably more like 95%, but what would the hobby look like without them? It would be run over by forgers. But at least Travis would be happy.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."

I believe that in order to determine the percentage of authentic/non-authentic, one would need the populations of both categories. I don't believe the former is published, so any guess as to their success rate would be just that.

I heard once that 86% of all statistics were made up on the spot. I'm not sure if that is exact, but I think it's close.

[RichardSimon]

PSA is brilliant in marketing and making money.
After that I am not so sure.

PSA/DNA reported on their site last year that they were approaching 3 million authentications, with a current rate of 35K per year. I think JSA's been around for 8 years or so? Would they have a comparable number? Are we looking at 5-6 million between the two to date, with the number climbing at a rate of over 1,000 per week?

How many fakes have been found? I take it some people on this site believe the number of fakes authenticated by these 2 companies is 10% or greater - meaning a half-million or more fakes are out there with PSA/DNA or JSA certs? If so, what's that extrapolation based on? When I search the 'net, I can't find more than a few hundred questionable/challenged items. Is there a site that documents tens of thousands?

Isn't there a big number of "slam dunks" that these guys verify - autographs that are extremely easy to authenticate, and autos verified at shows where the autograph guest is present? Wouldn't those alone ensure a relatively high overall accuracy rate?

FWIW, if you look at eBay sold and active listings, about 80% of PSA/DNA and JSA items are sports and 20% entertainment, so I'm guessing that's a good estimate for the split between the two autograph types.

[shelly]

They authenticate UDA,Stinson, Simon, Checks, in person autographs and I am sure more slam dunks than I can think of.

[Maddog]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I believe that in order to determine the percentage of authentic/non-authentic, one would need the populations of both categories. I don't believe the former is published, so any guess as to their success rate would be just that.

I heard once that 86% of all statistics were made up on the spot. I'm not sure if that is exact, but I think it's close.

I once had a very skilled and knowledgeable Financial Statistican tell me (jokingly I hope)- Statistics are 50% whatever the client wanted and 50% guess work

[Lordstan]

Personally, it's not the fact that they make mistakes. We all do. I would be willing to bet that every advanced autograph collector/dealer has bought and/or sold an autograph that turned out to be fake. I don't even care that much about the exact percentage. My biggest problem with them is the type of mistakes that they make.

1) Both certed a misspelled Ed Delahanty. Just a 30K mistake. How do you have a lot of faith in a company that can't get an opinion right where the name is spelled wrong? This is either sloppiness, which, considering their prices, is unacceptable or bias based on the relationship with the auction house.

2) Both certed and issued letters for a note supposedly written and signed by mid 1800s boxing champ Tom Sayers. They both pulled their certs AFTER it was pointed out that no one had an exemplar. They followed that by giving opinions, that the auction house published, that both felt the sig was real, even though they had nothing to compare it to. How could they have that opinion? It's not like it was a legal document or something similar. Perhaps, instead of all that, they should've seen they had no exemplar beforehand and stated they couldn't offer an opinion or issue a cert in the first place.

3) They have both issued certs for items in frames without removing them. Why? Lazy/Sloppy?

4) They both have rejected items they previously certed as real. Because the "in the presence" sticker was removed and the items were submitted back to them with letters from Chris Morales. Bias?

5) I have had at least two cases, personally, where PSA and/or JSA has rejected something I sold privately only to have them both cert the same item when submitted by a dealer that I wound up selling them to after the other deals fell through. Bias?

These and many other examples of similar types can be found. IMHO, They reflect sloppiness, greed, favoritism, and shady behavior. None of these things boost my confidence in the "service" they offer.

Now I don't mind having a service where, those who desire it, can send something in to get the opinion of someone who is more knowledgeable about autographs. Another big problem with both PSA and JSA is that no one has any idea who's opinion they are getting. For example, Jim Spence's name is at the bottom of every cert. Does that mean he sees every one? I doubt it. So I am supposed to pay for the opinion of some unknown person of unknown training and experience. Now, Spence may stand behind the opinion of his employee, but neither offers a guarantee or warranty on the items they opine on. Many sellers, including some big auction houses like REA, will state that the PSA or JSA opinion is final. So you buy it and you find out it's fake, the seller won't take it back and the TPA states you are only paying for our opinion. Now to be fair, I have heard of a situation where PSA has reimbursed someone for a wrong opinion, but it's at their discretion solely. IMO, a warranty should be part of their service agreement otherwise, how is that better than getting the opinion of the members of this or any other collecting board? After all, the original purpose for their existence was not to make the item sell for more money, but to ensure that the autograph being bought or sold was real.

M@rk Vel@rde

[joed25]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Your absurd statement (And I quote.):

"They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby."

I Agree it is not 99%. Spoke to fast. Still I believe with sports they are almost always right and that is HUGE for the hobby where most collectors can't tell what's real or fake. There is a memorabilia store in my local mall in NJ where 90% of the items are clear forgeries and the store is pretty busy. David- What do you think the percentage is? Do you think PSA is bad for the hobby?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by joed25

What do you think the percentage is?

It can vary.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by joed25

They are right 99% of the time. Only a moron thinks they are bad for the hobby.

I would guess the percentage is much lower. I think they are better than nothing, but only for people who know nothing about autographs - for them it's a better crapshoot than the alternative.

[joed25]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I would guess the percentage is much lower. I think they are better than nothing, but only for people who know nothing about autographs - for them it's a better crapshoot than the alternative.

I agree. I wrote a little too fast. I don't think it's 99% but in my opinion it is close. I hate their high fees... But I can't understand how travesty thinks its bad for the hobby. Try finding a PSA certified Mantle or Dimmagio ball on eBay that is really fake. You will have a very difficult time. So for the uneducated collector PSA is a very good thing.

[Leon]

And my apologies for my post in this thread. I posted while thinking of the card side of PSA. As for the autograph PSA/DNA.....I really have no comment.

[shelly]

Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by shelly

Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.

You kidding? Morales#1

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

You kidding? Morales#1

Was not ranking them by importance. Just by name.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by shelly

Was not ranking them by importance. Just by name.

I was being sarcastic I meant Morales was the best!

[joed25]

Originally Posted by shelly

Joed. you are only looking at the sprots side. They have made so many mistakes on the entertainment side it is a joke. At this point in time they are the lesser of the two evils. Morales, Muller,Galo, Max, ACE and so on.
That being said there are a few people on this site I would trust more that PSA or Jimmey.

Good point Shelly. I only know about sports. Nothing about entertainment...