T206 fronts/backs Extravaganza......show us what you have ?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

To Ted Z's T206 question...Burdick did an amazing job cataloging all the cards. I would group all T206 into subsets by their backs. All Polar Bear cards, all Carolina Brights, all Piedmont fact 42 etc. To me T213-1 is just a sub-category of T206. Even T213-2 and 3 are t206 fronts with very small blue font differences.

Rob

I like the way you think (regarding the 1910 COUPON cards).

So, what is your thinking regarding the 1910-1912 RED CROSS (T215-1) cards with respect to their T206 "cousins" ?









TED Z

[Texxxx]

I maybe in a class of my own but I have always felt that the T213 and T215 type 1's where part of the T206 set. I think the type 2 & 3's where after the T206 was finished. I know they used the same picture plates but that is seen with lots of other sets also.

[Sean]

Ted, here's another question: Is there a difference between the 1910 Red Cross and the 1912 Red Cross?

Can you please post a scan of each back?

[Texxxx]

The backs are the same. The type 1 has brown lettering on front like the t206 and the type 2 had blue lettering.

[RCMcKenzie]

Some cards appear in both series like this Ford. Other cards are only found in one or the other. Type 1 approx 1910-1912 Type 2 approx 1912-1913. It says 100 designs on the back, but the actual number of cards per series is short of that and unknown.

Ted, I have followed your prior threads on the topic and have learned a lot from those discussions. I would group t213-1 and t215-1 alongside the other t206's as you and others have said.

Edit to add- Chris pointed out that the grass background is all dark green on the type 2 Ford, I don't know if all type 2 Fords are printed that way or if this example is just printed differently.

[cfc1909]

Rob

if you study the print groups in t206 and apply that knowledge to the t213-1 set and the t215-1 set you will be able to realize Burdick got these correct and they are not part of the t206 set although the same fronts are used.

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Jim,

I tried to word my answer above carefully, as I respect both you and TedZ for y'alls experience with T206.

I, personally, would classify T213 "alongside" or "as a sub-set" to T206, and I'm not saying it should be renamed a T206. Lipset pointed out that in addition to having the same fronts as T206, T213-1 has the same captions without any team changes (I'm taking Lipset's word as I can't recall any).

T213-1 are made up of cards from "Print Group 2" "Super Prints" and "Southern League". The backs have an almost identical design to 3 other T206 backs.

I am not part of the debate over the nomenclature, and do not see a reason to rename the cards, but think that it is an interesting debate.

[tedzan]

Deleted

[tedzan]

Hey Rob

Contrary to what some on this forum say, Jeff Burdick mis-classified this T213-1 issue. FACT....his records show that he lumped in the 1910 COUPON cards with the T213-2 &
T213-3 issues with respect to their timeline (1914-1919). However, we now know that this set was indeed issued circa 1910. So, I don't really fault him for getting it wrong.

There are several indicators that confirm the 1910 issue date. It is obvious that the stylistic back design of these COUPON cards was drawn by the same artist that designed
the AB-BL-CY-DRUM backs. And, we have American Lithographic records that inform us of the Spring/Summer timeline of the T206 cards with these advertising backs.




Furthermore.....American Lithographic (ALC) used their printing plates during the 350 series press runs to print the 48 Major Leaguer's in the T213-1 set (see NOTE below).
Additionally, ALC selected from the 48 Southern Leaguers (SL), the 20 Southern Association SL to include in the T213-1 set consistent with COUPON's regional distribution.


NOTE....The six super-prints were initially 350-only subjects. When ALC started printing their 66 subjects in the SOVEREIGN "350/460" series they included the Chance, both
Chase's, Cobb, Evers, and Matty in this group.

Scot Reader very appropriately described the six super-prints as unique T206's in that they are "350-only & 460-only" subjects.


Rob....good buddy....your observation is correct, the 1910 COUPON cards are T206's. So, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Six T206 Super-Prints with 1910 COUPON backs





.....

..





TED Z

[tedzan]

A variety of Matty's










TED Z

[CMIZ5290]

Oh Ted...I want the Matty Sov. 460! Up for a trade?

[tedzan]

Hey Kevin

I acquired the Sovereign 460 Matty 7 years ago; and, I've only seen one other one since then.

Anyhow, this Matty is part of my all-Sovereign set, so it's not for sale.


TED Z

[tedzan]

Three examples of the various AMERICAN BEAUTY backs............


.








TED Z

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
LOOKING for these 6 - T206 guys to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (75 cards)

AMES (hands over head)....CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)
McQUILLAN (bat)....TINKER (bat off shoulder)

[cfc1909]

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

during the distribution of the t206 set there were 6 different print groups. Once a print group was done or discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not
brought back or printed again.

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909. The Coupon t213-1 was issued after December 1909. This fact makes Burdick correct
that the Coupon t213-1 needed is own ACC designation separate from t206.

For some time now the mysteries of the t206 set have been tried to be answered by examining the backs. This does answer many questions but not all. Take the time to
examine the fronts and understand the print groups and that will give a more compete understanding of the 206 set.

I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set

Whoa......pre-printed sheets of FRONTS were NOT...."discontinued and the next one began the previous one was not brought back or printed again."

These sheets were subsequently re-used to create the T213 series of sets, T214 set, and the T215 sets.

The printing plates of the 20 subjects in the Southern Association were used circa Spring/Summer 1910 to print the 1910 COUPON set's Southern Leaguers.

It is a known fact that Burdick "blew" the classifying of this set because his records indicate that his timeline 1914-1919 for the T213-1 set was obviously
INCORRECT.



The significance of the study of the various T206 backs has provided us valuable insight and timelines to when certain T-brands were printed and issued.
Illustrated here is my A-B-C-D connection (issued circa Summer 1910**). Note the stylistic design of the "COUPON" back is virtually identical to the other
4 designs.





Another breakthrough in understanding the T206 set occurred in 2007 here on Net54 when Art Martineau had observed a distinct difference in the color of certain
SOVEREIGN 350 backs. I had just completed my all-SOVEREIGN set of 402 cards in 2007. From this complete set we identified that 66 of the cards were printed in
"apple green" ink.

SOVEREIGN "apple green" backs vs "forest green" backs. These 66 cards identify the subsequent 350/460 Series subjects in the T206 set.

Forest green
column............v v................................ Apple Green array ...............................v






Studying the the various T206 backs led to my theory of the BROAD LEAF 460
and red HINDU backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.




Further studying of the various T206 backs led to my theory of AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
and UZIT backs of the 350/460 series having been printed simultaneously.

Furthermore, regarding the 350/460 cards the matched BROAD LEAF 460 and red HINDU subjects
are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with respect to the matched AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT subjects.






AND......I have examined the FRONTS....which resulted in my theory regarding the "EXCLUSIVE 12" subjects in the 460-Only series.



A T206 phenomena that T206 resource was apparently ignorant of.


However, I will agree that...."I am sure there will always be more to learn about the set".


NOTE **......This 1910 date was gleaned from American Lithographic's ledger records.



TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

Every card that has a type one Coupon back can be found with a Piedmont 350 back.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Every card that has a type one Coupon back can be found with a Piedmont 350 back.

Rob

Excluding the 6 super-prints (which of course were essentially printed with every possible T206 back).....are you aware that 39 of the 42 - Major Leaguer's
in the 1910 COUPON set were not printed with the POLAR BEAR backs ?

So, of what significaance is this....twofold............

(1)....Many of these Major Leaguer's career's ended, or they were in transition due to trades prior to the initial POLAR BEAR press runs (circa Summer 1910).

(2)....More importantly, it sets a timeline when this COUPON set was printed. The earliest POLAR BEAR press run is circa Summer of 1910. Therefore, it's fair
to conclude that the T213-1 cards were printed and issued prior to that date. My guess would be circa Spring or early Summer 1910.

NOTE......the 3 guys that were printed with the POLAR BEAR backs are......

Clyde Engle (NY AL) ......traded to Boston AL on May 10, 1910
Frank LaPorte (NY AL)
Ed Willett (Detroit)



TED Z

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

The southern league 48 cards or print group 6 was discontinued in December 1909.

I disagree on this particular point. The southern leaguers (SL) fall into TWO, not ONE print group. The first group, which I call 150/350 southern leaguers, was printed from about Summer 1909 to Winter 1910 (maybe into February or March) and is made up of 34 southern leaguers who are available with Brown Hindu, Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350. The second group, which I call 350-only southern leaguers, was printed from about Winter 1910 to Summer 1910 (maybe into June or July) and is made up of 14 southern leaguers who are available only with Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350 (not Brown Hindu).

The 150/350 southern leaguers are more difficult than the 350-only southern leaguers owing to the fact that they were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back (much like the 150/350 major leaguers were short-printed with that back). The numbers bear this out. So, rather paradoxically, the 150/350 southern leaguers are scarcer than the 350-only southern leaguers even though the former are available with a greater number of backs (3 vs. 2).

Edited to add: Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I disagree on this particular point. The southern leaguers (SL) fall into TWO, not ONE print group. The first group, which I call 150/350 southern leaguers, was printed from about Summer 1909 to Winter 1910 (maybe into February or March) and is made up of 34 southern leaguers who are available with Brown Hindu, Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350. The second group, which I call 350-only southern leaguers, was printed from about Winter 1910 to Summer 1910 (maybe into June or July) and is made up of 14 southern leaguers who are available only with Old Mill Southern and Piedmont 350 (not Brown Hindu).

The 150/350 southern leaguers are more difficult than the 350-only southern leaguers owing to the fact that they were short-printed with the Piedmont 350 back (much like the 150/350 major leaguers were short-printed with that back). The numbers bear this out. So, rather paradoxically, the 150/350 southern leaguers are scarcer than the 350-only southern leaguers even though the former are available with a greater number of backs (3 vs. 2).

Edited to add: Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

Scot

This is an excellent summary of the various printing stages involving the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series. Thank you for clarifying this issue.

Especially, your observation on the PIEDMONT 350 printing of certain SL cards. I found this to be true when I was trying to complete my all-PIEDMONT set.

I had quite a tough time finding certain SL guys with the PIEDMONT 350 backs.


TED Z

[cfc1909]

We haven't seen any evidence that would support the southern league subjects being printed after print group 1 was discontinued (Jan/Feb 1910). Everything that we have seen at this point shows that they were printed as a supplemental group during the production of print group 1 and discontinued at that time.

Originally Posted by sreader3

Additionally, southern leaguers were depicted in Old Mill Southern newspaper ads at least as late as March 1910.

Old Mill advertisements for the T206 set ran from about March to July of 1910. Information on these can be found HERE. If we're missing something please let us know.

Later in 1910 the same advertisements were reused for the T210 set and specifically mentioned southern leagues. These have been found as late as December 1910.

When trying to figure out the timeline of the southern league subjects with Old Mill backs, there isn't a more definitive piece of evidence than the ALC/ATC ledger page.