Should we maintain a list of suspicious buyers and sellers?

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

These "witch-hunts" have been warranted and justified. They're not being done out of boredom from what I have seen. I believe the cheaters...liars...crooks...and thieves need to be kept on the run...whether anything gets done to solve the problem or not...they just can't keep getting away with this!

Yeah but we can't just forever be police officers... we need to enjoy the hobby as well, or what is the point? The last few threads I have seen... we had the thread on Adrian, who has already been banned from the boards. The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there... I didn't see any evidence of doctoring and all that they really had on him were some low bids on his own card. That's not a good thing, really, but other than that, there was the thread on Bubble Bath Girl that seemed unwarranted as everyone rushed to his defense. Just saying that lately we've had a lot of threads with people reaming each other out with little evidence of wrongdoing. Not saying that it is bad to expose liars and cheaters, just making the point that it can get tiresome and they will always be there. You can think you've gotten everybody but then the next ebay scam will just appear with some re-sealed wax pack or something. Yawn.

[Tao_Moko]

I come on here to see cards and learn about the hobby and baseball but somehow lack the discipline to avoid these threads. "Caveat Emptor" is all that is needed for me. I think the forum gets bogged down by posts not directly related to the cards. Sometimes they are warranted but many times they are unnecessary and why I have stepped away some and even left the hobby in the past. I would have to say " no" to the witch hunt.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there...

Serisously? Did you miss the whole part of him shilling many, many of his own auctions?

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Serisously? Did you miss the whole part of him shilling many, many of his own auctions?

Honestly, I didn't look at it too closely, just skimmed it a bit. So if I mischaracterized it then I apologize. I only said it might have been warranted as opposed to fully warranted because I don't want to indict the guy myself. Don't want to get involved. But it is not your thread I am objecting to, just a larger tone of the mb since then where some threads have involved hashing up old garbage or other mudslinging.

[KCRfan1]

Creating a " Black List " is not the answer. I'll go back to my original post and say do business with who you are comfortable with, and don't deal with those whose business practice you do not like. This is very simple and not complicated. ( read ebay feedback for example )There is enough information for all of us to form our own opinions w/o the use of a list, be it comprised of " good " sellers and buyers or " bad " sellers and buyers. These lists always turn into question marks as there will be ones who wrongly end up on said list. Scammers will always scam and we know this. If we do our research we, and others, can buy and sell with confidence.

[E93]

A feedback system on the BST would be nice.
JimB

[Luke]

but I voted No because if we asked for this to be implemented, we'd be asking the mods to wade through all of the drama posts, and make a ruling about a person, while sticking their neck out legally. Not something I think we should ask them to do.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

but I voted No because if we asked for this to be implemented, we'd be asking the mods to wade through all of the drama posts, and make a ruling about a person, while sticking their neck out legally. Not something I think we should ask them to do.

The mods wouldn't have to wade through any posts.

If I buy a card on Ebay, and the seller tells me that "he lost the card", and then I see him sell it for more money the next day, I would start a thread here. But then I would begin the appeal process on Ebay. Then I would contact a mod or admin with the facts of the dispute. They wouldn't have to wade through the discussion at all, as what I'd present to them would be pretty cut and dry. They would make their decision having never taken a look at what the members here were saying.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by E93

A feedback system on the BST would be nice.
JimB

Best idea so far.

[oldjudge]

Suspicious to who?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

Best idea so far.

If it just took flipping a few buttons it would be done. I would like to have that kind of system too but I think it will require an upgrade of s/w.....to a newer version..Which is something I haven't wanted to tackle. I have yet to ever have anyone email me for a reference and at the end of the whole thing they didn't do a deal because of not being able to vette out the seller. Again, I would like a feedback system too. Maybe one will be in the future...

[botn]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

The thread on Joseph P. may have been warranted, but other than buying cards and cracking them out and having them regraded, what else was there... I didn't see any evidence of doctoring and all that they really had on him were some low bids on his own card.

This is a joke, right? The cards that were shown in that thread were perfect examples of cards which had been doctored. Are we looking at the same pictures?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by botn

This is a joke, right? The cards that were shown in that thread were perfect examples of cards which had been doctored. Are we looking at the same pictures?

Those are just minor details

[tschock]

Similar to "collect what you enjoy". Read what you want. It's obvious from most thread titles what the thread will be about. To grouse about reading too many of these types of threads leads to the obvious question.

I also find it curious that some of same people that seem to imply there is nothing that can be done (since the scammers will always be there or find another way to scam) are the same ones who say we should do nothing. I guess it make's an easy justification for doing just that.

[nsaddict]

I am on the fence on this topic, and the voting is somewhat close too. There have been several postings on the issue that was worthy to reveal, such as the legendary Pank. And others that were a joke such as the link below. The OP almost had a mental breakdown calling the dealer every name in the book over a 3.00 card that had a 14 day return policy???

http://tinyurl.com/kqhh3u7

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by tschock

Similar to "collect what you enjoy". Read what you want. It's obvious from most thread titles what the thread will be about. To grouse about reading too many of these types of threads leads to the obvious question.

I also find it curious that some of same people that seem to imply there is nothing that can be done (since the scammers will always be there or find another way to scam) are the same ones who say we should do nothing. I guess it make's an easy justification for doing just that.

Absolutely.
I don't need a seperate list of suspect buyers and sellers; I can figure out who I don't want to do business with just by reading this thread...

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Yeah but we can't just forever be police officers... we need to enjoy the hobby as well, or what is the point?

You are absolutely right, Jamie. But how can you enjoy the hobby as a seller on Ebay if you are spending a substantial portion of your evening reading the feedback left for people bidding on your items? It seems to me that this list would make you less of a police officer, as it would help to eliminate many of the people that could cause you problems.



“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”--Edmind Burke

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You are absolutely right, Jamie. But how can you enjoy the hobby as a seller on Ebay if you are spending a substantial portion of your evening reading the feedback left for people bidding on your items? It seems to me that this list would make you less of a police officer, as it would help to eliminate many of the people that could cause you problems.



“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”--Edmind Burke

Well, I think that ebay affairs are really for ebay to manage. They have their system and way of doing things. You may or may not agree with their methods, but their profits are greater than anybody's. They've chosen to create a system where, apparently, it is almost impossible for a seller to leave negative feedback for a buyer. That was their choice. But it's hard to create a sort of vigilante blacklist on the side because there would be no way to get off it. I think you have to go with the ebay system and address whatever complaints to them. That doesn't mean it isn't flawed, or that you or I might not do things differently, but ultimately I believe that when you sign up for ebay there must be some sort of contract that you agree to follow their rules. Otherwise you can sell somewhere else...

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Well, I think that ebay affairs are really for ebay to manage. They have their system and way of doing things. You may or may not agree with their methods, but their profits are greater than anybody's. They've chosen to create a system where, apparently, it is almost impossible for a seller to leave negative feedback for a buyer. That was their choice. But it's hard to create a sort of vigilante blacklist on the side because there would be no way to get off it. I think you have to go with the ebay system and address whatever complaints to them. That doesn't mean it isn't flawed, or that you or I might not do things differently, but ultimately I believe that when you sign up for ebay there must be some sort of contract that you agree to follow their rules. Otherwise you can sell somewhere else...

Ebay does have it's way of doing things, and it sucks. And yes, their profits are incredible. But I'm not interested in their profit margin. I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of my fellow Net54 members, when dealing with new members. We can say "well, it's easy to avoid trouble, just read the feedback left for buyers." I'm sorry, I don't want to waste 15 minutes reading feedback every time I want to sell an item when I could bring up a spreadsheet, hit ctrl-f, and enter the user ID and enter, and accomplish the same thing in 10 seconds. And it's not a vigilante blacklist; calling it such somehow insinuates that I am out to get people that have demonstrated poor behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. I could care less about the people that would appear on the list. Their names would exist just to save me the trouble of having to go through a prolonged appeal process.

There are people out there like Zone91 who have perfect feedback as a buyer even though we know he has not paid for several items in the past (confirmed by members of this forum). And there's really not even any bad comments that have been left for him. People like this would appear on the list.

I guess it's a moot point, as it's not going to happen. And it's too bad, because I think some of the people voting "no" are making a lot of assumptions about how the list would be managed instead of asking questions first. Hell, if it were a concern of liability, put the list on my website. I would be the only person in harm's way. I would be responsible for maintaining the list, and if somebody wanted to shoot off a pissy email, they could send it to me. I have no problem with making my email public.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ebay does have it's way of doing things, and it sucks. And yes, their profits are incredible. But I'm not interested in their profit margin. I'm interested in my safety, and the safety of my fellow Net54 members, when dealing with new members. We can say "well, it's easy to avoid trouble, just read the feedback left for buyers." I'm sorry, I don't want to waste 15 minutes reading feedback every time I want to sell an item when I could bring up a spreadsheet, hit ctrl-f, and enter the user ID and enter, and accomplish the same thing in 10 seconds. And it's not a vigilante blacklist; calling it such somehow insinuates that I am out to get people that have demonstrated poor behavior. Nothing could be further from the truth. I could care less about the people that would appear on the list. Their names would exist just to save me the trouble of having to go through a prolonged appeal process.

There are people out there like Zone91 who have perfect feedback as a buyer even though we know he has not paid for several items in the past (confirmed by members of this forum). And there's really not even any bad comments that have been left for him. People like this would appear on the list.

I guess it's a moot point, as it's not going to happen. And it's too bad, because I think some of the people voting "no" are making a lot of assumptions about how the list would be managed instead of asking questions first. Hell, if it were a concern of liability, put the list on my website. I would be the only person in harm's way. I would be responsible for maintaining the list, and if somebody wanted to shoot off a pissy email, they could send it to me. I have no problem with making my email public.

Remember that most ebay bids are snipes, at least the winning bids are often snipes. So unless you are going to block the person from bidding ahead of time, there is no reason to be checking out feedback. You just hope they pay and go with it. If they don't pay, you run the auction again.

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid but then wound up returning a lot of the cards. That's not going to win any awards, but it's different than being a non-payer.

As far as your maintaining the list, it's more than someone shooting off a pissy email. You'd have to make judgment calls about who is and isn't a good ebayer. That is going off the grid, man, that really is being a vigilante and creating your own set of rules. If you think checking bidder feedback is hassle, try setting up a blacklist and see what a hassle that is!

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid...

Yep, he paid for most of his transactions...what a piece of trash!

Post # 1

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Yep, he paid for most of his transactions...what a piece of trash!

Post # 1

I don't think it's right to go on ripping the guy. He's not even here any more to defend himself. Bad ebayer, no doubt, but there's far worse. I don't think he stole from anyone, although he was an incredible nuisance. There's been far worse, but he did wind up being incredibly annoying and a pathological liar.

But if you're an ebay seller and you haven't blocked him, then you are getting what you ask for because his ebay ID has been mentioned several times. The protocol is decent enough as it is... make your own decisions about who you are going to block/not block.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

As far as Zone91 goes, I think that he mostly paid but then wound up returning a lot of the cards. That's not going to win any awards, but it's different than being a non-payer.

As far as your maintaining the list, it's more than someone shooting off a pissy email. You'd have to make judgment calls about who is and isn't a good ebayer. That is going off the grid, man, that really is being a vigilante and creating your own set of rules. If you think checking bidder feedback is hassle, try setting up a blacklist and see what a hassle that is!

No, Adrian simply did not pay for these items. It was not a matter of him returning the cards and getting refunds. He made a commitment to buy the items, then reneged. He said he did not have the money to pay for them, and he did it more than once. In one instance, he bought a $500 card, and backed out on the transaction. Then he bought $200 worth of cards the next day.

I don't want to go into the whole Zone thing again, as it's been beaten to death, but before you comment on what he did and did not do, you really should know what really went down:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=169148

And I'm hardly some vigilante. A vigilante is somebody that doles out retribution to somebody they feel has slipped through the legal system. I'm simply trying to provide a list of people that voluntarily entered into a legally binding contract, and are backing out of their commitment. I am trying to protect you, myself, and the good and honest members of this forum that are tired of the crooked behavior that is running rampant throughout our hobby. And as I've said at least two or three times now, nobody would be put on to the list unless there was clear, incontrovertible facts to establish their culpability.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I am trying to protect you, myself, and the good and honest members of this forum that are tired of the crooked behavior that is running rampant throughout our hobby.

I would guess that I've made ~1000 transactions (buying and selling) in the past five years since I have returned to the hobby. That total includes this forum, eBay, auction houses, and multiple other card and coin forums. In that time I have had a grand total of 0 issues. Knock on wood. Sure I've had a couple of NPB's, but in the end I'm really out nothing but time. How have I accomplished this?

- I've been lucky.
- I use common sense.
- I study high dollar items before I make a purchase.
- I pay immediately.
- I ship securely within two business days of payment with tracking.
- I make sure the buyer is receiving exactly what he/she is expecting.
- I only pay gift to trusted members of the community.
- I am patient.
- I never "take a chance".
- I use common sense.

I do not believe this site needs a running blacklist because it is in all probability one of the safest collecting communities online. The vast majority of message board scammers are under 18, deal in shiny cards, or both and that pretty much leaves this little oasis on the fringe. I'm sure some will sneak through the cracks here, but as long as you protect yourself in unsure situations the most you should have to face is a hassle and not a loss. Not to mention the liability Leon would be putting himself up against. I have seen many names called out on this forum before and some of them have deep pockets, huge egos, and a retainer already paid in full. The responsibility should be on individual raising the issue, not the forum in which the issue is raised.

If eBay is the market the scares you then just check the CU forums daily. They offer up a half-dozen names for the BBL list everyday. It is like a sport over there.

If you are afraid that you are getting shilled follow this advice someone once gave me: "Never bid more than you are willing to pay." If I put a $500 bid in on an item and win it for $498 I don't look to see if I might have been shilled up. I look and see when/who I have to pay. Until eBay reverses there "hidden bidder" policy it will continue and even if high volume consignment brokers like Probstein took it upon themselves to police the thousands of auctions that they run someone who wants to shill their auction will find an alternate/friend's/new account to do so on.

I'm not trying to insinuate that this thread was a bad idea or that you are wrong for bringing up the issue, I just feel that being smart protects you in 99.9% of transactions and paypal protects you in the other .01%. (If you're the buyer. )