Should we maintain a list of suspicious buyers and sellers?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I think it makes more sense to point out some dealers that someone new to the hobby can be comfortable buying from, like the list on http://www.oldcardboard.com/ref/ebay...ay-sellers.asp

Even a positive list like that could make some folks upset that they are not on it.

After a while, collectors can make up their own minds about what to buy and where.

That is a different, and viable approach. But you're right, RC, invariably, somebody is going to be left off, and feel slighted.

I don't know, guys and gals. I'm looking for something that we can do to make the hobby a little safer for everybody here. Maybe this isn't the best answer. Or, perhaps some variation of this idea will work if we focus on the positive instead of the negative. There's certainly no legal ramifications if a seller is left off a positive list.

I am reminded of Doug Goodman's response to my point about the apathy of the major players in the hobby (the tpgs, card manufacturers, Ebay, auction houses, etc)

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

It's the honest hobbyists who need to change their ways. The major players who you speak of have no reason to change, because to them the "hobby" matters less than their bottom line.

There's just got to be more that we can do. And I believe we can affect changes. Ultimately we are the ones that wield the power. It is our discretionary income that makes it possible for these large players to rest on their laurels.

[Bocabirdman]

Due diligence is the answer. Read a seller's feedback. Put a good eye on the scan. Ask questions here on the board. PM people you trust and respect for their opinions. Read the threads where people express their public opinions. This hobby is best enjoyed with a modicum of caution but everyone's experiences differ. Tolerances for card condition and acceptable shipping times vary. To list sellers, good or bad, is a short cut with glaring consequences. Who to include or omit would be a fulltime headache that the moderators here do not need. We are all adults. Transactions, positive and negative are bits of data to be learned from, first-hand. There is no instant, painless alternative to years or, hell, decades of time in this hobby. Newbies need to, "Step lightly but keep a steppin'. ".

I shall now step down from the soap box.

[D.P.Johnson]

Silence is the scammer's best friend; knowledge is the scammer's worst enemy.

[barrysloate]

I said yes to the list, but you do want to be really careful that you've got your facts straight before you post somebody's name.

[ullmandds]

I also said yes...with caution of course.

When I'm on call(I work for a group dental practice encompassing 25 someodd dental practices)...we keep a potential "drug seekers" list so we can be prepared for callers seeking narcotic Rx drugs. This has proven very effective in the past.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I also said yes...with caution of course.

When I'm on call(I work for a group dental practice encompassing 25 someodd dental practices)...we keep a potential "drug seekers" list so we can be prepared for callers seeking narcotic Rx drugs. This has proven very effective in the past.

Pete,

But that is "your" drug seekers list used for "your" purposes. You don't post that list for public consumption and condemnation. In the hobby, we all have lists of sellers and/or buyers that we will or won't deal with based on past experiences, some of which the whole hobby might need to know about. How do you decide who's to be "scarlet lettered"? How do you repair the reputation of a person included erroneously? How do you answer a person who says, " I sent him the money because he WASN'T on the Net 54 SH*T LIST and got burned."?

[ullmandds]

good point, Mike!

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

Due diligence is the answer. Read a seller's feedback. Put a good eye on the scan. Ask questions here on the board. PM people you trust and respect for their opinions. Read the threads where people express their public opinions. This hobby is best enjoyed with a modicum of caution but everyone's experiences differ. Tolerances for card condition and acceptable shipping times vary. To list sellers, good or bad, is a short cut with glaring consequences. Who to include or omit would be a fulltime headache that the moderators here do not need. We are all adults. Transactions, positive and negative are bits of data to be learned from, first-hand. There is no instant, painless alternative to years or, hell, decades of time in this hobby. Newbies need to, "Step lightly but keep a steppin'. ".

I shall now step down from the soap box.

While I agree with this, a lot of times these "scammer" buyers and sellers strike quickly. I'm dealing with several "scammer" buyers right now and would like to share that information with other sellers, but there's really no place for me to do that...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

While I agree with this, a lot of times these "scammer" buyers and sellers strike quickly. I'm dealing with several "scammer" buyers right now and would like to share that information with other sellers, but there's really no place for me to do that...

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Leon

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

Leon (and others),

I see what the OP is proposing as a viable option. I don't think he is talking about a place for discussion of scammers, etc, but a place to list those already discussed. What I see as viable is a list of possible people to deal with caution, with a slight summary and a reference back to the vetting thread.

Using the Panky thread as an example. This were was a long discussion on this, but the "list" would contain a reference back to the original thread with (possibly) a brief summary. With the thread reference in place, should Panky change his ebay ID (for example), that can be detailed in the original thread and would be easy to locate and update, if the reference was handy in the list. I don't see the list containing any real discussion at all.

Not sure if this is exactly what the OP was intending, but I could see this working without an increased risk of liability. We could even provide the ability for the entity to respond, either in their own thread (which would be added as a referenced thread on the list), or their response could be inline with the original referenced thread.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by tschock

Leon (and others),

I see what the OP is proposing as a viable option. I don't think he is talking about a place for discussion of scammers, etc, but a place to list those already discussed. What I see as viable is a list of possible people to deal with caution, with a slight summary and a reference back to the vetting thread.

Using the Panky thread as an example. This were was a long discussion on this, but the "list" would contain a reference back to the original thread with (possibly) a brief summary. With the thread reference in place, should Panky change his ebay ID (for example), that can be detailed in the original thread and would be easy to locate and update, if the reference was handy in the list. I don't see the list containing any real discussion at all.

Not sure if this is exactly what the OP was intending, but I could see this working without an increased risk of liability. We could even provide the ability for the entity to respond, either in their own thread (which would be added as a referenced thread on the list), or their response could be inline with the original referenced thread.

Taylor, perfectly summarized.

The list would be just that. A collection of names, with no discussion whatsoever. It would be a quick reference for Net54 members to refer to before doing business with a person for the first time.

An example of what the list could look like:

"Exercise caution when doing business with the following Ebay buyers:

Public, John Q: purchased two cards buy it now, and reneged on the purchases. Net54 member ______ had to enter two unpaid item cases with Ebay. Link to the discussion on Net54: "______".

Public, Michael Q: won an auction for a Ty Cobb T206 red back being sold by Net54 member ______. Dispute resolution was started after non-payment despite several attempts to contact the buyer by e-mail. Unpaid case item created.

-----

There would not be anything that could expose the forum to legal troubles, as the only thing the list would contain would be indisputable facts of the issue(s) at hand: the user ID and name of the buyer/seller, the name of the website or auction house, a brief summary, and a link to whatever discussion (if any) has already taken place on Net 54. And before anybody's name would appear on the list, proof would need to be provided documenting the facts: a copy of an unpaid item case, for example.

I would never suggest or do anything that would put Leon or Net54 in harm's way whatsoever.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I would never suggest or do anything that would put Leon or Net54 in harm's way whatsoever.

I appreciate your thoughts and we can keep debating this but..... It's not going to happen because of -

1. liability (regardless of what anyone thinks, I already get enough threats)
2. management of the section
3. added drama

I don't think there is anyway to overcome those obstacles. **And as everyone knows, I don't think change is good unless it's an overwhelming majority that wants it. Not only is it not that, it's not even a majority in this case.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

No place to do it? How about starting a thread? Warn all you want to.

Oh, ok...I didn't realize there was a section on this board where I could do that. I've looked around before but couldn't find it. I'll look again. Thanks...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Oh, ok...I didn't realize there was a section on this board where I could do that. I've looked around before but couldn't find it. I'll look again. Thanks...

It is this front page. Don't look too far. See BBG thread if you are unaware of where?

[rainier2004]

The list would be a nice reference, but Id rather have a list of good sellers as previously mentioned...if someone gets left out then no biggie b/c eventually they'll make the list. It would serve as nice reminder of the good people in the hobby.

Leon monitors the hell outta the BST, he also provides reference checks extremely quickly and promotes further checks. If those weren't all in place then the list idea would be better, but I just don't think we need it here. I just bought a card from a member and feel comfortable enough to ask him to hold it for 3 week while we are on vacation...crap happens, but reference checks on Leons BST seems to eliminate that.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is this front page. Don't look too far. See BBG thread if you are unaware of where?

Outstanding! Thank you!