Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by David R

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

[drcy]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

I’ve never understood that mentality either. If the item is shilled, but doesn’t go above the maximum that someone is willing to spend, they don’t care? I don’t buy that. The mindset “As long as it doesn’t exceed my maximum” is not logical. It’s basic human nature to try to get things as cheaply as possible.

If you go to the car dealership with your mind made up that you’re not going to spend over $30K and the car you pick out has a sticker price of $29,995, do you still not haggle and try to get them to come down from the sticker price? Sure you do.

[Runscott]

Normally sellers shill in order to make sure they get every last penny that you are willing to pay. If they try to get more, they end up selling to their own shill i.d.

But in the case of a few famous/infamous ebay auctioneers, I believe the shilling actually creates a feeding frenzy, resulting in prices that are sometimes higher than market value. Over time a feeling grows in the collector community (among some, but not all) that the auctioneer in question has superior goods, which only exacerbates the 'problem'.

Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. Given that ebay gets a cut, I would not expect it to ever stop;if anything, ebay will simply implement additional policies to cover up our ability to prove that anything illegal is going on.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

....
Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. .

I think there are a few people who thought it was an effective model that wish they hadn't. Hopefully there will be more that wish they hadn't also.

[Runscott]

David and David, everyone cares about getting cheated out of money, but since we are certain it occurs with many/most auction houses, then we have two choices: we put in the bid that we are willing to pay, and if we pay less, that's great, and if we suspect there are issues, we let them know. Or we refuse to bid with any auction house that we suspect shills.

I have elected to put my bid in and not worry too much about it unless I see evidence of a problem. There is only one auction house where I have recently been paying my high bid for every single item. Because of this, I might very well quit doing business with them. I contacted them about the issue and did not get a straight-forward answer, but I really didn't expect to. I just wanted to let them know that I felt I was possibly getting screwed. I will probably throw a few bids in for odd items in their next auction, and then report the problem here on this forum if the evidence is compelling. If either of you have a better idea, please let me know - I'm all for helping wiping out auction corruption.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I think one big problem is that all too often stuff trumps everything else. If you've been looking for a specific card for a long time and it finally shows up, I suspect there is a tendency, at least on the part of some people, to bid on the card, try to win it, and then bitch about being cheated after they've filled their want list.

That tendency is an epidemic in this hobby (me included).

[T206DK]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

this is exactly why he stays in "business". I put the word business in quotes , because he doesn't run it like a business should be run. If it was his primary source of income and he depended upon it he would make damn sure no shill bidding took place. there would be no need to question how he could possibly track all those bidders, because it would be part of his business plan. he would have employees and measures in place to track all auction activity ALL the time. has anyone ever contacted the prosecutor in the county where he does business ? I would be curious to hear about anything like that happening and any results of such conversations.
( this is assuming he is an honest businessman)

[conor912]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

That's a rational thought, but often times a collector's emotions will dropkick his rationale and leave it for dead during the auction process.

[drcy]

My post was only a response to those who on occasion post "I have no problem with with me being shilled, because I got the card within my price range."