The Response

[oldjudge]

David--the three bids put in on the sale of the hockey card had no impact on the final price. There were three different bidders quite a bit above his highest bid. The lot would have sold for the same price whether he bid or not. Also, how do you know who the bought and submitted the three bids on the hockey card? It is the same person, but how from the bidding records do you know who it is?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

the three bids put in on the sale of the hockey card had no impact on the final price. There were three different bidders quite a bit above his highest bid. The lot would have sold for the same price whether he bid or not...

Ah, but the problem is with the intent, not the actual result. The INTENT was to influence the final price. THAT is the problem here. Doesn't matter whether or not he actually influenced it or not.

Should someone NOT be charged for ATTEMPTED robbery or bribery provided it didn't work?

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

David--the three bids put in on the sale of the hockey card had no impact on the final price. There were three different bidders quite a bit above his highest bid. The lot would have sold for the same price whether he bid or not. Also, how do you know who the bought and submitted the three bids on the hockey card? It is the same person, but how from the bidding records do you know who it is?

Sorry, but I disagree. Perhaps his bid had no impact on the final price of this particular auction. But doing so is criminal in my mind. Why not start with a higher amount or a reserve? Isn't a well know auctioneer getting jail time for this very thing?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

David--the three bids put in on the sale of the hockey card had no impact on the final price. There were three different bidders quite a bit above his highest bid. The lot would have sold for the same price whether he bid or not.

I understand your point that the bids had no impact on the final price, but regardless, it's still shill bidding. Please keep in mind, this is one card of many he has shilled.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Also, how do you know who the bought and submitted the three bids on the hockey card? It is the same person, but how from the bidding records do you know who it is?

This is done through feedback. I usually look at the feedback the seller leaves for the buyer, because the buyers usually don't leave feedback in these cases (less chance of being caught). To show you how it works, let's use the Gehrig that Panky doctored...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281122751526...1#ht_23wt_1200

1.) Open the auction and click on the bid history.
2.) It shows 9***8 (408) as the winner. That never changes from auction to auction, only the number in parenthesis (the feedback) will change.
3.) Now open the sellers feedback and click on "Feedback left for others."
4.) Scroll down until you find the bidder with 408 feedback.
5.) You'll see that it's member cgseller89.
6.) Once you know the username, it's easy to track from auction to auction

[npa589]

I don't even think one can produce a fact-based argument saying that the shill bids did not influence the final price. For example, what if both competing buyers had not seen any other competition other than themselves? Isn't it possible that they may have both entered a lower snipe? Also, though unlikely, there is a possibility that any specific buyer could include a filter in their search that does not include items below a certain price threshold. The shill bids revealed more of what the "3rd place" buyer was willing to pay, so obviously this added an element of demand that didn't in fact exist. All of these perspectives, however, are more for conversation than for their connection to the fact that it is illegal. Perhaps Joe is avoiding more of the illegality of it by consigning to Probstein!

[oldjudge]

Thanks David. I also agree that shilling is shilling.

[atx840]

1970 Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 (Centered/High End)
BOUGHT @ $222



1970 Topps #500 Hank Aaron HOF Atlanta Braves PSA 9 MINT NONE HIGHER CENTERED
Bumped & SOLD @ $1055

Bid took it from $166-$300

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by atx840

1970 Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 (Centered/High End)
BOUGHT @ $222



1970 Topps #500 Hank Aaron HOF Atlanta Braves PSA 9 MINT NONE HIGHER CENTERED
Bumped & SOLD @ $1055

Bid took it from $166-$300

you dont need anymore evidence than that!

SCHILLER......does SGC know he has SGC listed under his jobs in facebook?
not good publicity for them!!!

anyone know the law in regards to schilling an auction? if its over $500 is it a felony?

[brewing]

David, I believe you have stated the case several times over with solid evidence each time.

Thank you,
Brent Ingr@m

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by atx840

1970 Hank Aaron PSA 8.5 (Centered/High End)
BOUGHT @ $222



1970 Topps #500 Hank Aaron HOF Atlanta Braves PSA 9 MINT NONE HIGHER CENTERED
Bumped & SOLD @ $1055

Bid took it from $166-$300

Who the hell is buying these cards? $800+ increase for a 1/2 grade bump on a common card.

Makes me wonder why nobody is pointing their fingers at guys who are just way to happy to part ways with their money over miniscule adjustments in grade.

It's almost like they've created their own hell for charlatans like this to thrive.

[frankbmd]

Trust me, Peter, I'm a doctor
Fixing cards without a proctor.
You'll surely agree whiter is righter
To make the grade, I'll make 'em brighter.

Trust me, Al, I'm a cutter
Slicing bread and adding butter.
To sharpen a corner may require
A sliver removed for a bump to acquire.

Trust me, Jeff, your cards are grungy.
To soak off germs and latent fungi,
I use water and a touch of heat.
You'll then have grades tough to beat.

Trust me, Leon, my game is hype.
Give me a handful, any type
With smoke and mirrors and perhaps a shill
Your net worth will soar despite my bill.

Trust me, Barry, in any saloon
I'll flatten your cards with only a spoon.
You buy the drinks for my hobby buddies
But not for the forum fuddy-duddies.

Anonymous

[Texxxx]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Who the hell is buying these cards? $800+ increase for a 1/2 grade bump on a common card.

Makes me wonder why nobody is pointing their fingers at guys who are just way to happy to part ways with their money over miniscule adjustments in grade.

It's almost like they've created their own hell for charlatans like this to thrive.

People that are super rich want to have the very best and cost is not a factor.

[Texxxx]

Frank your name has to be there. No Anonymous

[ullmandds]

Doctor Frank...now you just have to put it to music!!!! Go get the Wurlitzer out of the closet and get busy!!!!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

People that are super rich want to have the very best and cost is not a factor.

I agree. They're part of the registry, and they're trying to raise their score.

[xcgrammer]

What is the percentage of times that someone who threatens to sue actually follows through on it??? My guess is 0.3 percent of the time. Threats rarely are followed through on. For example "I'm gonna kick your ass." when said in a bar never happens. If you were gonna kick someone's ass or sue them you would want the element of surprise which is why a threat to do either is pretty much a promise you won't do either, ither, neither, nither.