Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[drcy]

A difference between the coin hobby and the baseball hobby is baseball memorabilia collectors usually have baseball bats.

[slipk1068]

I am sure I will get slammed for this, but tell me what you think of this scenario:

Someone from Grading Company X is at the National in year 20xx and he meets someone from Grading Company Y at the bar. They both have close friends at their jobs. They get to talking and come up with an plan.

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.

Someone doctoring cards can make some money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at a grading company and they can all make a lot of money. Someone doctoring cards with the help of a couple insiders at 2 grading companies and they can all make a fortune.

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

[OFF CENTER TRADING]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I have seen a lot of talk in this thread about card doctoring, some talk about incompetent graders, but what about collusion? Now, all you TPG defenders can start commenting on how whacky my conspiracy theory is.

Not entirely crazy, in my opinion. Ultimately, cash is king, and greed rules. I'm sure you could propose a few more scenarios that would be dismissed quickly and easily by the masses, but a higher degree of professional skepticism in this hobby may just be warranted as collectors continue to be taken advantage of. Sometimes, it's not so easy to piece the puzzle together, but the sharing of information by honest individuals is key to preventing future breakdowns. Thank you again for the contributions in this thread.

In instances of widespread collusion amongst willing and able parties (who may just set benchmarks and lay foundations for the hobby), collectors will always face uphill battles in their quests for personal fulfillment. Motivations for profit from people we don't know should never be underestimated.

[drcy]

But seriously, the word is 'provenance.' As in, "At the very least show me where you bought the card." Presumably an owner didn't purchase the card sight unseen. There was a scan and a description from before he owned it. At the very least. This is the computer age.

If someone offered you a Picasso painting, you'd say "Where'd you get that?" But many graded card collectors often don't care that a PSA 10 seemingly popped out of nowhere. They seem to have no interest in knowing, in asking, or even thinking about, where the card came from, what it looked like when the current owner bought it.

Would this simple provenance inquiry be a panacea to all ills? No. Would it be relevant to the cards talked about here? Obviously. It's shown in action when you post the before photos. The problem is it should have been the purchasers who are asking about the history. And I would suggest also the graders.

[barrysloate]

So I was speaking to a hobby buddy of mine yesterday, who reads this board (but doesn't post) and he asked a really provocative question: given how much bad stuff is out there, given that many card doctors are staying at least one step ahead of the graders, why are people still sinking such incredible amounts of money into this stuff?

And I need a better answer than stuff trumps all. Sure, good stuff may trump all, but nobody wants to sink money into trimmed, altered, and counterfeit material. Is it that only a small percentage of collectors know about this? Is it they trust TPG implicitly? Are they turning a blind eye? Do they believe that only the other guy's stuff is bad and they own only unadulterated material?

You would think that if this information was widely circulated, the market should collapse. And yet we regularly see enormous sums of money being spent on this high grade material. I'm sure somebody can figure this out.

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

--

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

[bobbyw8469]

They keep a list of the serial numbers of some high end cards that they intentionally undergrade and are candidates for doctoring. Maybe they graded a Goudey Ruth a 6 that should have been a 7. Now, they have someone monitor auctions. If a card on their list comes to auction, someone they know buys it. It gets doctored and magically becomes an 8. It is an 8 because THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GRADE IT! They undergraded it originally, purchase it, doctor it, grade it a second time, then consign it.

I have privately thought this as well. I have had cards come back real head scratchers on subs I did several years ago. One or two cards per sub would grade really low for the condition. Then when they started doling out half grades, I have had cards come back with the half grades when they should have been shoo-in's for at MINIMUM the next grade up. That made me think that maybe the half grades on cards were red flags for the graders to look at for undergraded cards. My last sub in particular, every single card seemed at least one grade too low. That being said, I believe this is a very plausible theory.

[barrysloate]

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

+1

Good one! Made me laugh, I almost forgot we were talking about cards

Sincerely, Clayton

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry there are all sorts of rationalizations people give for themselves.

1. I am careful, I can avoid or minimize the problem. (mine)
2. It doesn't affect what I collect.
3. The problem isn't nearly as widespread as the conspiracy theorists claim.
4. It's all speculation, there is no proof.
5. TPGs do well by my submissions therefore I trust them.
6. I don't believe the conspiracy theories about inside jobs, favoritism, etc.
7. If it's in a holder it has a defined value so what difference does it make anyhow.
8. I just want to enjoy my hobby so I choose to avoid all the negativity.

Excellent post Peter - as usual.

The other major factor that seems to purge all rational thinking out of typically well educated and financially successful people is the Set Registry. If the competition factor wasn't enough, receiving Hall of Fame awards and being publicly recognized in the SMR and PSA's website pretty much inoculates anyone who just dropped six or seven figures building a "world class" collection from going public and saying, "This grading and registry concept is a sham and I've been had!"

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

Barry, I think you're right, but I don't think there is more than that. I think we try to overthink things and complicate them looking for answers. The top dogs on the set registry don't care about cards, they care about being number one. They'll take a crappy 9 over a high end 8 any day because they're jockeying for position on the registry.

Take this '57 Drysdale below that ended on eBay last night. It sold for $7100 which I believe to be a record (didn't verify that though). Now, look at the back. Do you really think that deserves a 9? Do you really think the guy that purchased it even cares about the back (or even looked at it before he bought it for that matter)? No, he only cares about what the flip says.

Do you think the buyer of that card would have given even $100 for the same card if it resided in a PSA 6 holder? No, because it’s not about the card, it’s about the flip and it wouldn't help him on the registry. That PSA 9 Drysdale will help that buyer on the registry and that’s all that matters to him. You're right, as long is the label reads “8” (or whatever number they buyer is looking for), then the card is that number in his mind.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-1...#ht_950wt_1042

[botn]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Take this '57 Drysdale below that ended on eBay last night. It sold for $7100 which I believe to be a record (didn't verify that though). Now, look at the back. Do you really think that deserves a 9? Do you really think the guy that purchased it even cares about the back (or even looked at it before he bought it for that matter)? No, he only cares about what the flip says.

Do you think the buyer of that card would have given even $100 for the same card if it resided in a PSA 6 holder? No, because it’s not about the card, it’s about the flip and it wouldn't help him on the registry. That PSA 9 Drysdale will help that buyer on the registry and that’s all that matters to him. You're right, as long is the label reads “8” (or whatever number they buyer is looking for), then the card is that number in his mind.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-1...#ht_950wt_1042

That was my card. I bought it ungraded here, http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/im...05&lot_num=889. It was submitted and came back graded accurately in a much lower holder because of the print line and couple of touches to the corners which no longer seem touched. It was sold in the lower graded holder earlier this year. Amazing transformation.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by botn

That was my card. I bought it ungraded here, http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/im...05&lot_num=889. It was submitted and came back graded accurately in a much lower holder because of the print line and couple of touches to the corners which no longer seem touched. It was sold in the lower graded holder earlier this year. Amazing transformation.

Wow!

You didn't happen to scan it after it came back did you? Mind sharing the grade? It is described by Hunt Auctions as EX-EX/MT.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wow!

You didn't happen to scan it after it came back did you? Mind sharing the grade? It is described by Hunt Auctions as EX-EX/MT.

I think I found it? Same print marks on front. Do you still have the original (better) scan. Amazing how it goes from a $154 card to a $7100 card

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So I was speaking to a hobby buddy of mine yesterday, who reads this board (but doesn't post) and he asked a really provocative question: given how much bad stuff is out there, given that many card doctors are staying at least one step ahead of the graders, why are people still sinking such incredible amounts of money into this stuff?

And I need a better answer than stuff trumps all. Sure, good stuff may trump all, but nobody wants to sink money into trimmed, altered, and counterfeit material. Is it that only a small percentage of collectors know about this? Is it they trust TPG implicitly? Are they turning a blind eye? Do they believe that only the other guy's stuff is bad and they own only unadulterated material?

You would think that if this information was widely circulated, the market should collapse. And yet we regularly see enormous sums of money being spent on this high grade material. I'm sure somebody can figure this out.

My answer is that as long as the label reads "8", it's an "8." Case closed. But I think it's more than that.

As a related point, I never have understood the large disparity in values of high-graded material (8 v. 8.5 for example). Even setting aside the issue of fraud, the subjectivity of the grading process

[mark evans]

I posted my comment accidentally before finishing my point. It just seems to me that the subjectivity inherent in the grading process should over time reduce the large disparity in values at the high end.

[ScottFandango]

did rick ever say why this guy still is allowed to consign with him still?

the silence is deafening.....

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

did rick ever say why this guy still is allowed to consign with him still?

the silence is deafening.....

Nope, but he (Joe) currently has 627 auctions running in Probstein's store. Why should he give us an explanation though? After all, he's been busted twice now and there are no repercussions, so why not just do business as usual if you’re Rick?

On another note, tomorrow has been 3 weeks since Greg B removed that '34 Gehrig from eBay and sent it back to SGC. I wonder if he's heard anything back yet?