Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[GasHouseGang]

I believe the Gehrigs are the same card, but something happened to it between PSA and SGC. The back discoloration seen in the PSA holder is gone as seen in the SGC holder. It's possible that it is because of the scanner setting, but it looks like it has been cleaned.

[Sean1125]

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

[bigfanNY]

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

good post

[Wite3]

Not only should the seller make buyers aware, they should not allow shill bidding to take place on those (and really any) items.

Why am I not surprised Rick has not come on. He has defended himself before but now cannot be bothered. Too much evidence? Too much money involved?

Joshua

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Not only should the seller make buyers aware, they should not allow shill bidding to take place on those (and really any) items.

Why am I not surprised Rick has not come on. He has defended himself before but now cannot be bothered. Too much evidence? Too much money involved?

Joshua

Why? I will tell you why. It may be because this is an "attack first, defend later" Board that refuses to be objective. Rick could have been in a coma for 2 months, wake up today, sue Pankiewicz for the excess profits, give them to the original sellers, and hire 2 more assistants to scour his auctions to look for potential shilling. But he would still be attacked for not having the foresight to hire the assistants before he went into his coma or not knowing that some of his clients are submitting under false names from another state.

Responding to this Board only increases the attacks and if I was Rick I would do the right thing but say nothing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's a bump from a 6.5 to an 8.5 worth?

[nsaddict]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Why? I will tell you why. It may be because this is an "attack first, defend later" Board that refuses to be objective. Rick could have been in a coma for 2 months, wake up today, sue Pankiewicz for the excess profits, give them to the original sellers, and hire 2 more assistants to scour his auctions to look for potential shilling. But he would still be attacked for not having the foresight to hire the assistants before he went into his coma or not knowing that some of his clients are submitting under false names from another state.

Responding to this Board only increases the attacks and if I was Rick I would do the right thing but say nothing.

Eric, I would agree with your assumption. However, there is enough info within this thread to say otherwise. It would be in Rick's best interest to address this issue of one individual. This link should open many eyes. He provides links to past auctions making it look like they're his auctions that lead to Probstein. Ok, let's assume Joe is the consignor, click on the 1961 Topps baseball set. The 3rd highest bidder with a fb of 9622, aka pank21 is Joe P. In older links at the bottom he even says "check out ebay seller pank21" What does this tell us??


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Josep...18125758251089

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

In April of this year I found at the bottom of a box twelve pieces of what once were a Louisville Slugger Poster from the 1939-1941. I put the pieces together and marveled at nice the poster once looked. I searched online for a person who restored Movie posters. There were many and I narrowed my search down and chose a man named Dario from Vancouver Canada. He said he could restore the piece and it would take eight to ten hours of work. When I got the poster back I took it to a reputable art dealer who dealt in prints to frame and preserve the Poster. You can see the result below. Up close you can see what appear to be folds along the lines he repaired. But from a foot or so away you judge. What was done to this poster can and is done to cards all the time. (Search on Dick Towle) Paper items can and I believe sometimes should be restored and preserved. If it is not it will deteriorate and your grandchildren will be left with dust instead of The history of baseball as it was recorded (In Paper form) for most of it's first 100 or so years. Now for me a baseball card collector for many years I will not even clean the gum or wax off of a card just never did so never will. But others do. In about 1975 I visited the Metropolitan Museum of art and they brought out the Burdick Album with T cards and in there was The Wagner displayed on a stamp hinge so that you could look at the back. I have seen that card later and there is no trace of the hinge. They can and did restore their card. People do and some very rare cards and posters would be lost if they were not restored. BUT ANY ETHICAL SELLER SHOULD ABSOLUTLY ALERT BUYERS TO THE RESTORATION. And any buyer should be aware that this could happen to ANY card and it would be very very difficult to detect. This has been the state of our hobby since the get. And I for one still love this stuff but find it hard to like many of the people who sell this stuff for a living. Alerting each other to folks who are looking to get over is necessary and thank you Vintagetopps guy for spending the time to help the rest of us on this message board.

MHO

Jonathan

Stamp hinges are designed to be removable. The adhesive is water activated, so it damages the gum on unused stamps, but the adhesive will usually come off a used stamp without leaving any trace it was there. Some are better than others, and the Met would have known which were the best.

Steve B

[steve B]

If the Gherig had simply been cleaned I think that would have been ok. A light surface cleaning is acceptable in nearly every field, as the dirt will eventually cause damage.

At first I had a few doubts that the two were the same. The various marks are all from the production process, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two nearly identical cards. But thinking about it, the circumstances that would lead to there being two nearly identical Goudeys in that condition would be unlikely.

One of the things that made me think they were the same was the slight diamond cut, especially of the lower border.
It's odd that someone would retain that diamond cut while trimming.

But if it was done on a factory type cutter, The edges would remaim paralell, so the diamond cut would remain. And the cuts would be almost impossible to tell from factory.

Perhaps this is what will get TPG to look at things in more detail and for a bit longer.

Steve B

Originally Posted by steve B

If the Gherig had simply been cleaned I think that would have been ok. A light surface cleaning is acceptable in nearly every field, as the dirt will eventually cause damage.

At first I had a few doubts that the two were the same. The various marks are all from the production process, and I wouldn't be surprised to see two nearly identical cards. But thinking about it, the circumstances that would lead to there being two nearly identical Goudeys in that condition would be unlikely.

One of the things that made me think they were the same was the slight diamond cut, especially of the lower border.
It's odd that someone would retain that diamond cut while trimming.

But if it was done on a factory type cutter, The edges would remaim paralell, so the diamond cut would remain. And the cuts would be almost impossible to tell from factory.

Perhaps this is what will get TPG to look at things in more detail and for a bit longer.

Steve B

Much more concerned about a clearly trimmed card receiving a numeric grade than the light surface cleaning not being detected as I'm sure most, yourself included, probably are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

How does this not reflect on the grading companies more than anything?

Obviously it does not reflect well on them, but it also speaks more fundamentally to the problem of (likely) rampant card doctoring. To some extent, yes, the issue is inconsistent grading and the same cards -- without alteration -- can and do get different grades. I have seen some incredible journeys within a 3 grade range for the same card simply cracked out and resubmitted. But I think more often than not, what's going on with these bumps is that someone has improved the card.

[the 'stache]

The problem as I see it, gentlemen, is widespread indifference within the hobby. It's not just one or two sellers with questionable ethics, or a particular tpg accepting cards from these sellers, that should draw our ire here (though I am certainly not above cracking a bad egg or two publicly). There is an all-encompassing malaise that nurtures this kind of unethical behavior, and the biggest companies within the industry seem perfectly content to keep things the way they are. Topps, with it's exclusive rights to MLB licensing through 2020, is making money, even as the overall quality of their product has fallen off a cliff. Ebay is making money hand over fist. The tpgs are making their money, one cracked slab resubmission at a time. The auction houses are making their money. And these crooked sellers are making money, too. And while it is not easily proven, it is quite possible that at least some of these participants within the industry are acting in concert. But whatever their intentions, whether or not there is any collusion, their apathy is greatly detrimental to the hobby. Until these major players change their way of doing business, honest hobbyists will continue to suffer.

Look how long it took PSA to change their slabs. I returned to the baseball card hobby a little over three years ago, and it didn't take long after seeing my first graded card to discover how easily these cases could be cracked, leaving little to no evidence of chicanery. PSA continued to insist that their "tamper evident" slabs sufficiently deterred crooks, but the videos on Youtube showed otherwise. So, not only were collectors doling out huge sums of money for another person's expert opinion, now they had to worry about the very authenticity of the cards they were buying. I was horrified by PSA's indifference to the issue, as I'm sure many of you have been.

Knowing what we know, why would anybody want to get into our hobby for the first time? Kids aren't doing it, because companies like Topps, Donruss, and Upper Deck priced them out of the market. When I was a child, I'd get a couple bucks from my dad, go down to the local card shop, and buy some packs. Then, I'd come home, and trade with my friends. Kids can't afford to spend $100 on a box that has 10 cards inside. And if kids aren't getting into the hobby, they're not likely to invest in vintage or pre-war cards when they are older.

The hobby is saturated with the stench of greed, and crookedness. If we're ever going to see positive change, we need to band together, and exercise our buying power. Or, we'll just continue to get more of the same. More Josephs, and more tpgs not delivering what they promise.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The problem as I see it, gentlemen, is widespread indifference within the hobby.

I agree.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But whatever their intentions, whether or not there is any collusion, their apathy is greatly detrimental to the hobby.

I agree.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Until these major players change their way of doing business, honest hobbyists will continue to suffer.

I respectfully disagree.

It's the honest hobbyists who need to change their ways. The major players who you speak of have no reason to change, because to them the "hobby" matters less than their bottom line.

If honest hobbyists were to stop paying money to the people who get paid for their opinions, many of the problems within the hobby would go away.

The advent of the "chase" card was the beginning of the end, that's when people started looking at packs of cards as lottery tickets, that's when prices started being paid based on the potential lottery winner in the pack.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

... they're not likely to invest in vintage or pre-war cards ... The hobby is saturated with the stench of greed, and crookedness. If we're ever going to see positive change, we need to band together, and exercise our buying power.

The fact that you use the word "invest" illustrates why the "stench of greed, and crookedness" will always be with us, unless we follow your suggestion to "band together, and exercise our buying power" to NOT BUY lottery ticket items, be them cards or numbers on pieces of plastic.

But that will never happen, so my advice is to enjoy the part of the hobby that you enjoy, and do your best to ignore the rest of it.

Obviously, with this rant, I am failing miserably on that last part.

Happy hobbying,
Doug "I pretty much stopped buying new product in 1992" Goodman

[ullmandds]

je me souviens!

[john.clowes]

The competitiveness of the set registries over the past few years is driving a lot of folks to bend (or break or ignore) the rules, in my opinion. Folks are sitting on slabs, or perhaps buy new ones, but yet they watch their holdings get passed by in the standings on the registries. Pressure builds to crack slabs and do things to improve their positions. If the registries went away, perhaps the collective pressure to get to mint at all costs would be reduced to a more manageable level. My 2 cents that you got for free.

[robw]

Like with graded memorabilia, put an invisible stamp/id# only visible under blacklight, to the card....plus, the TPG's should have a scanned copy of all cards in their internal database. If a card is resubmitted with a stamp, they now can cross reference to see if card has been altered. I would gladly pay a few bucks more per card.

Rob

[conor912]

The saddest part is that this will all soon fade from the front page and it will be back to business as usual for Joe and his cohorts.

[atx840]

[nsaddict]

Nice profit for pank...hey buys the 7, resubmits and receives an 8. Same card for sure!


http://tinyurl.com/mqoyxfg

[ullmandds]

nice comparo Chris!!!!!

the rt border is dramatically thinner!

[vintagetoppsguy]

I get nervous enough cracking out a card to resubmit for the fear of it coming back a lower grade (or even trimmed). Who would crack out a card worth several hundred dollars, altar it and then try to resubmit it, unless that person already knew that they didn't have anything to worry about - that it would receive a numeric grade? There’s a lot of risk involved there – unless there really is no risk at all.

[frankbmd]

In my professional opinion this thread gives a whole new meaning to the definition of "Plastic Surgery".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I get nervous enough cracking out a card to resubmit for the fear of it coming back a lower grade (or even trimmed). Who would crack out a card worth several hundred dollars, altar it and then try to resubmit it, unless that person already knew that they didn't have anything to worry about - that it would receive a numeric grade? There’s a lot of risk involved there – unless there really is no risk at all.

How could you have no risk? Unless you owned the grading service or had an in, I suppose.

[botn]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

nice comparo Chris!!!!!

the rt border is dramatically thinner!

Indeed so..and the bottom border too. Assuming they are the same cards either someone has the ability to mimic factory cuts or SGC missed the boat. With that much of the card gone I cannot imagine it measures properly. Either way it is way too expensive a card to be in anyone's holder.

I understand the FBI is sitting on bidder records from many of the auction houses. Seems like a fairly easy job for someone to start identifying purchases and consignments and matching up before and after pics. One 40K card does not warrant an investigation but it is pretty easy to see how you can get up in to the millions of dollars of fraud. It has always been my opinion that the amount of money taken from collectors in this manner far exceeds what has been taken via shill bidding.

Here is a side by side pic of the two cards...

[4815162342]

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

[ullmandds]

I'm just wondering if this Joey P...who supposedly "used" to work for SGC...has an inside connection there...who is upgrading these submissions. So mistakes weren't/arent bring made...maybe this is intentional?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

It does beg the question, why the crossover if PSA brings consistently higher sale prices? Assuming this card had an equal chance of making it past either company, why go to SGC and not back to PSA?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So David, do you still say that "anybody that can look at a thread like this and still submit cards to PSA has absolutely no moral conscience"? Or do you now see that SGC is also capable of making mistakes. Good fraudsters seem to be able to take advantage of both companies.

Daryl,

I'm not so sure they're mistakes. To answer your question very honestly, I will have to strongly consider if I ever submit another card to any grading company. My last SGC submission consisted of about 15 E92 Dockmans. 2 came back as EOT (which I'm pretty they're not), one came back as minimum size requirement not met and another was a PSA 4 that would not cross over. So, I'm led to believe they can detect trimming on $50 E92 common, but they can't detect trimming on a $25K+ Gehrig? Horse crap! Those two Gehrigs are definitely the same card and it has definitely been trimmed.

David

Edited to add a side-by-side scan of the back of the Gehrigs. I circled all the print marks on the PSA card and they are the same on the SGC card. The SGC was scanned with brighter settings, but still the same card, only TRIMMED.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by atx840

That's a terrific before and after comparison! Thanks for posting that.

Has the SGC Gehrig been sold? If so, that promises be a rather stiff buy-back if the buyer is aware of the problem and pursues that route. One would think that losing $10K or $15K on a card should hopefully change the way the grading company screens cards and screens submitters.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=321179871436

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=321179871436

I am starting to more understand why some companies might not want to advertise where many of their customers are (here).

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Also, does anyone know who the original purchaser of the PSA card was???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson

Also, does anyone know who the original purchaser of the PSA card was???

Last I checked auction houses don't tell who won their cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Greg has been in the card business since the 80s, I believe. I am sure he can form his own judgments.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Greg has been in the card business since the 80s, I believe. I am sure he can form his own judgments.

I guess now would be a good time for Greg to accept a low-ball offer on the card...I mean, I hope he wouldn't knowlingly sell an altered item on ebay...

[atx840]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Has anyone contacted the seller gregbussineau about the SGC version being offered?

Yes.

Makes me re-think this guy.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan, yours for the asking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=321179871436

Thanks for the info Peter.

Actually someone just informed me that:

Sold at

Memorylane (id #20470) 5/6/11..

then sold Goodwinandco (id #23561) 6/21/12 for $7,299.46.

What's still not known is who was the buyer from Goodwin and submitter to SGC since it's possible that its currently a consignment item.